Toohey's News

[HarVeeGee13]

Look it KPP told it true after the game that AOB basically told them to start tossing the ball around, and then the team instantly looked way better, he’s in trouble either way. If he hasn’t already lost them, he will have now. The real beginning of the end for Browny was that the winning streak in 2019 was the direct result of them scrapping the game plan they’d worked on all pre-season and all year to that point.

We might play a bit more expansively in the coming weeks, and we might look better as a result, but that won’t save AOB. Because he has spent way too long insisting on the wrong thing. How can you trust the man after that?

 

[Sarge]

Look it KPP told it true after the game that AOB basically told them to start tossing the ball around, and then the team instantly looked way better, he’s in trouble either way. If he hasn’t already lost them, he will have now. The real beginning of the end for Browny was that the winning streak in 2019 was the direct result of them scrapping the game plan they’d worked on all pre-season and all year to that point.

We might play a bit more expansively in the coming weeks, and we might look better as a result, but that won’t save AOB. Because he has spent way too long insisting on the wrong thing. How can you trust the man after that?

You can't

 

[Seano]

IDK why it's taken him so long to realise it, but we beat the Panthers playing a more expansive game only to get thumped by the Dragons (who were in turn thrashed this week) playing Obi ball and then to come back from nowhere, throwing the ball around.

AOB's inability or unwillingness to mix his tactics up except when all hope is lost are a huge problem, but the other thing that annoys me about Obi ball is that it really relies on a lot of go forward....you can't play Obi ball when your team only makes 29m out of defence and that's with a Fletcher Shrape line break (as happened in one yardage set in the first half last Thrusday).

 

[Sarge]

Anyway looking forward to what we come up with next Saturday night .

 

[Owey]

I go back to that "we've got to realise we are an ugly team" conference last year as to where he lost me. We'd been the best attacking side the year before, two class rep centres and a generational attacking fullback who weren't seen as the teams strengths? By all means, be a gritty team when the scenario calls for it, but what mindset was he going for with these comments? The Storm and the game have evolved way past what he is still trying to implement here. Having shape in our own half to be able to move the ball Thursday night made a huge difference.

 

[Krambach]

Agree. If we have Payne hass by all means throw him the ball for yardage. If your starting prop is Brodie jones, with all due respect maybe you spread it to gagai/marzew for some meters. Bit more of a defence focus for the props. Rarely seeing ponga score/set up tries down that left edge from fullback. He was unstoppable there at one point. Seems more worried about kicking in general play these days.

 

[Sarge]

Agree. If we have Payne hass by all means throw him the ball for yardage. If your starting prop is Brodie jones, with all due respect maybe you spread it to gagai/marzew for some meters. Bit more of a defence focus for the props.

Can't remember the last time I've seen so much excitement in the grandstand when Fletcher Hunt contested to bomb & crawled over the line for a try Totally unexpected . Felt like it was the first bit of excitement we have had this year . At that stage I would have been happy with a 16-12 loss

 

[Les Misérables]

As I said in another thread, who is the miraculous coach we bring in to make us a 100% better?

Flanagan is meant to be the next coming of Christ according to media and content creators yet his eammm for the past 2 years gets smacked by 50-60 pts every 3rd game.

Hasler who powerbrokers outside of the Knights tried doing a sneaky signing with, has an incredibly good forward pack and backline depth and yet The Titans are way way worse off and now dead last

McGuire has one of the most talented teams on his books and they are playing worse than Brisbane did last year. - Granted i'll give him longer as its his first half a season in charge.

So all this constant talk of how bad Obi is, yet he gets his team to the final last two years with some of the worse halves combos and this yr has a horrendous forwards injury crisis and rookies playing each week and a FB barely 50% healthy mentally and physically yet the team still tries its guts out most weeks, with a couple exemtions, yet the team hasnt had 50 put on them.

Agree whole heartedly that the attack has been horrid, but I feel a lot of that is down to ball control and no forward domination, the few wins we've had this year has been when Jsaf has played and got us forward and ball conrol has been good which has allowed the attack to flow a bit.

So, Les IF you continue with the addage Obi is horrendous at coaching I want to start hearing your plan, because I all I'm seeing is complaints but no answers. What coach will do better with this current squad? with current injury crisis and depth???

We dont know what we dont know BTP.

I dont know if McDermott or Arthur would be better coaches than OB, or if there are any other coaches out there that would suit our team.

I dont know exactly what the problems are that have lead to our predicament, or the best way to solve them. Neither do I know the real reasons the club is reluctant to sack him or how the players truly feel about it all.

All I do know, though, is that this is the worst football we've played since we were a NSW Cup quality team copping the spoon in back to back seasons under Brown. We are currently the worst team in the comp. And things seem to be getting worse.

Its been 6 years under OB not a single thing has changed/evolved over this period. We seem to be running uphill every week, marching towards what seems like an inevitable death each game, strangled by what is clearly the most asinine game play to ever persist across 6 seasons in NRL history.

What we do know, is we change that by changing the coach. And the players proved it in 40 mins last week, they're capable of so much more.

 

[BTP]

We dont know what we dont know BTP.

I dont know if McDermott or Arthur would be better coaches than OB, or if there are any other coaches out there that would suit our team.

I dont know exactly what the problems are that have lead to our predicament, or the best way to solve them. Neither do I know the real reasons the club is reluctant to sack him or how the players truly feel about it all.

All I do know, though, is that this is the worst football we've played since we were a NSW Cup quality team copping the spoon in back to back seasons under Brown. We are currently the worst team in the comp. And things seem to be getting worse.

Its been 6 years under OB not a single thing has changed/evolved over this period. We seem to be running uphill every week, marching towards what seems like an inevitable death each game, strangled by what is clearly the most asinine game play to ever persist across 6 seasons in NRL history.

What we do know, is we change that by changing the coach. And the players proved it in 40 mins last week, they're capable of so much more.

I'd disagree that nothing has changed in 6 yrs. I think there has been plenety of roster changes in the first two years, Namely Mitch Pearce leaving early and Clifford having a meltdown in 2022, Ithink Braddey missed majority of the season too. Brails being injured for majority of his tenure.

You'll hate it that I'd say, but O'Brien's best case of showing what he can get out of the team is in 2023, where we ended up having barely any injuries throughout the team, fit and healthy halves and forward pack that got moving from Phoenix figuring out that was his position.
2024 was messy due to form of players and again injury. halves were poor for majority of the year and Best/KP out for half a season. but pulled it together.

I do agree that I think Obi really gets anxious as a coach and may possibly not have the mentality to be a long term head coach, he'd be a great assistant coach though, as he's shown. I also agree that I think his time is up by seasons end or possibly mid year from what I've heard due to $$.

I also agree I think he's struggled to agree to let them loose because every game this year our ball handling is atrocious, unsurprisingly the only times we hold the ball for majority of the game or half in some cases the teams attack starts too click. That isn't Obi saying "don't use the ball" that him saying if you respect the ball and are willing to back up your mistakes then yes go for it". Some how a team with no noted forward held onto the ball and spread it perfectly with accurate passes and players running off each other with great energy in D to back it up.

It's why I'm not completely off him because the squads injuries have been horrid this year and we simply cant compete with horredous ball control. I honestly won't be shocked that we do pull our **** together and slip into the 8 due to how hardy the team is. If we get a fair run with injuries it may happen, but im also not holding my breath haha.


I agree in parts with you but im definitely not on board with thinking he's a **** coach and not capable of being apart of the half time turn around, it may have been player fored and his coaching team, we'd love to know, but i choose not to presume who says what.

I'll put my two cents in by saying I think Green will make a strong coach, and well respected by the players, but alas a rookie
Peters I'd bring back, he's been great from day one in England and has History with the club.
Arthur potentially, though I feel he could be of the same mould as Obi
Burgess has probably the pull to bring quality players with him, but only a season in
McDermott wouldn't be long term and I don't feel like he;d be interested, though from what's been said he's respected by players.

 

[Les Misérables]

I'd disagree that nothing has changed in 6 yrs. I think there has been plenety of roster changes in the first two years, Namely Mitch Pearce leaving early and Clifford having a meltdown in 2022, Ithink Braddey missed majority of the season too. Brails being injured for majority of his tenure.

You'll hate it that I'd say, but O'Brien's best case of showing what he can get out of the team is in 2023, where we ended up having barely any injuries throughout the team, fit and healthy halves and forward pack that got moving from Phoenix figuring out that was his position.
2024 was messy due to form of players and again injury. halves were poor for majority of the year and Best/KP out for half a season. but pulled it together.

I do agree that I think Obi really gets anxious as a coach and may possibly not have the mentality to be a long term head coach, he'd be a great assistant coach though, as he's shown. I also agree that I think his time is up by seasons end or possibly mid year from what I've heard due to $$.

I also agree I think he's struggled to agree to let them loose because every game this year our ball handling is atrocious, unsurprisingly the only times we hold the ball for majority of the game or half in some cases the teams attack starts too click. That isn't Obi saying "don't use the ball" that him saying if you respect the ball and are willing to back up your mistakes then yes go for it". Some how a team with no noted forward held onto the ball and spread it perfectly with accurate passes and players running off each other with great energy in D to back it up.

It's why I'm not completely off him because the squads injuries have been horrid this year and we simply cant compete with horredous ball control. I honestly won't be shocked that we do pull our **** together and slip into the 8 due to how hardy the team is. If we get a fair run with injuries it may happen, but im also not holding my breath haha.


I agree in parts with you but im definitely not on board with thinking he's a **** coach and not capable of being apart of the half time turn around, it may have been player fored and his coaching team, we'd love to know, but i choose not to presume who says what.

I'll put my two cents in by saying I think Green will make a strong coach, and well respected by the players, but alas a rookie
Peters I'd bring back, he's been great from day one in England and has History with the club.
Arthur potentially, though I feel he could be of the same mould as Obi
Burgess has probably the pull to bring quality players with him, but only a season in
McDermott wouldn't be long term and I don't feel like he;d be interested, though from what's been said he's respected by players.

Don't disagree with much of that, other than I feel like our opinions diverge around how circumstances have effected us. Yes, we've been unfortunate with injuries, but at the same time we've lacked resilience and resistance to failure at the first sign of inconvenience. Every team gets injuries. Very few of them fall apart the way we do.

Take this season for example, the moment JSaf was out through injury the wheels fell off. That's not being victim to injury, that's being a victim to our own shortcomings.

Being a professional sports coach isn't fair. Look at the way Ange Postecoglou was treated. An extreme example but we're talking about a top 6 team in the EPL. First season he over performed, had them really playing for each other and the jersey. 2nd season, half a dozen of their highest paid stars missed most of the season, they struggled in the League as a direct result. But he still managed to win the Europa League title. And they sacked him. Why? Because winners dont make excuses for bad results, they don't explain them away, winners assume responsibility for all outcomes irrespective of the mitigating circumstances that contributed to those outcomes. That's an extreme example, imo, we're on the opposite end of that spectrum. We're an extreme example of tolerance of failure/excuse making etc.

Souths have Havili (an actual forward) playing hooker atm and you wouldn't notice they're missing their starting hooker. You legit cant notice in their performance. Despite Havili having the worst service in the NRL.

We are losers because we tolerate losing not because we're unlucky. We rationalise poor outcomes by postulating how outward circumstances are the cause of our misfortunes, rather than assuming control and responsibility for outcomes.

 

[BTP]

Don't disagree with much of that, other than I feel like our opinions diverge around how circumstances have effected us. Yes, we've been unfortunate with injuries, but at the same time we've lacked resilience and resistance to failure at the first sign of inconvenience. Every team gets injuries. Very few of them fall apart the way we do.

Take this season for example, the moment JSaf was out through injury the wheels fell off. That's not being victim to injury, that's being a victim to our own shortcomings.

Being a professional sports coach isn't fair. Look at the way Ange Postecoglou was treated. An extreme example but we're talking about a top 6 team in the EPL. First season he over performed, had them really playing for each other and the jersey. 2nd season, half a dozen of their highest paid stars missed most of the season, they struggled in the League as a direct result. But he still managed to win the Europa League title. And they sacked him. Why? Because winners dont make excuses for bad results, they don't explain them away, winners assume responsibility for all outcomes irrespective of the mitigating circumstances that contributed to those outcomes. That's an extreme example, imo, we're on the opposite end of that spectrum. We're an extreme example of tolerance of failure/excuse making etc.

Souths have Havili (an actual forward) playing hooker atm and you wouldn't notice they're missing their starting hooker. You legit cant notice in their performance. Despite Havili having the worst service in the NRL.

We are losers because we tolerate losing not because we're unlucky. We rationalise poor outcomes by postulating how outward circumstances are the cause of our misfortunes, rather than assuming control and responsibility for outcomes.

Also fair points mate and thank you for having a decent back and forth about it.

Club has had a "least they tried mentality" for some time even in the Joey days when we should have had a bloody Dynasty ourselves.

I'm liking the front office currently though with Parr, Sully, Adam Blair and Chris James starting to take control, some very good administration in there that will hopefully see improvement in mindset

Finger crossed for rest of season too, that's all I have to say, over and out ;)

 

[Seano]

We are losers because we tolerate losing not because we're unlucky.

Who claimed the Knights are a losing franchise (overall) because of luck? It's not SFA to do with tolerance and everything to do with the complexity of creating a successful franchise in a competitive professional sporting league. Compounded by the fact that the Knights have only really (I'm not counting Tinkler's fake money) been financially stable during the last 8 of the club's 37 years. Compounded by the fact that it's a regional club with far less access to 3PAs of the clubs in the major centres.

 

[Les Misérables]

Who claimed the Knights are a losing franchise (overall) because of luck? It's not SFA to do with tolerance and everything to do with the complexity of creating a successful franchise in a competitive professional sporting league. Compounded by the fact that the Knights have only really (I'm not counting Tinkler's fake money) been financially stable during the last 8 of the club's 37 years. Compounded by the fact that it's a regional club with far less access to 3PAs of the clubs in the major centres.

You started your comment with a red herring. The Knights are losing franchise, in part, not because of luck, but because we tolerate failure more than almost any other franchise. In fact, you're the one attributing our misfortunes to bad luck.

I'm sick of appealing to luck. At some stage we just need to be better and quit feeding ourselves outdated stories about ourselves about having, perhaps, once genuine excuses like being a 'mining town' or whatever. Newy is a metropolitan *city* an hour and a half from Greater Sydney, on the coast, with as much access to significant 3rd party sponsorship as the next club. The same institutions that operate in Sydney also operate in Newcastle, only, in Newy, we're not competing with other footy clubs. All this stuff is honestly excuse making. We need to grow past it psychologically before we can escape it

 

[Seano]

You started your comment with a red herring.

You're confusing your logical fallacies, champ. You've posted a strawman argument by attacking things I haven't said. A "red herring" is a misleading or distracting element. There was no distraction from me,

I said nothing about luck; I directly referenced your claim that Knights fans tolerate losing and excuse it due to luck. I asked who? And clearly you can't say who because it's something you've made up.

Along with the suggestion that the Knights "tolerate" losing, which is puerile nonsense that you haven't proven.

There is a difference between making mistakes and "tolerating" losing. At the end of 2023, it appeared on the surface that the Knights were heading in the right direction. A season and a half later, it's clear they didn't have the salary cap and recruitment and retention right and that they'd gotten overconfident in their coach.

These are mistakes, and fixing them will take time, and they do need to learn from their mistakes so as not to repeat them, but they can't just $2m no matter how much it upsets you. That's not tolerance, it's just a financial reality.

PS. "Newy is a metropolitan *city* an hour and a half from Greater Sydney,"....You can call it what you like Champ but Newy is a regional centre as far as any kid in Sydney is concerned and getting quality players to come to Newcastle on reasonable money has ALWAYS been a problem. It's also a town that does not have the 3PA money that the Sydney clubs have. That's just a fact. Your unwillingness to deal with these realities doesn't make them excuses.

 

[HarVeeGee13]

I’ve never really understood the “we lose because we tolerate failure” argument. The clubs with the highest coaching turnover are the Titans, Tigers… utterly refusing to tolerate failure & the coaches which keep failing them are rightfully punished for it, I suppose?

How are they going?

I do think the milk has gone sour with AOB and the negatives now outweigh the positives. But you’d think he inherited the 2001 Knights with some of the chat in here. He’s done good things and bad things. Like it or not, the most success we’ve had since Joey retired has been under him. I think “he’s taken us as far as he can” covers it. If you were going to make the comparison with the Premier League, he’s like Sean Dyche. Improved the culture, but way too conservative, and there just seems like there’s a point at which you need to cut the cord.

I’m very glad we don’t go through coaches like they do in European football though. Maybe a third of sackings over there are justified/not premature… and usually just the front office finding a scapegoat for their own failings.

 

[Seano]

In a way, given the huge changes in our list over the next couple of seasons, not being able to rush in a new coach may be a blessing for the club. Let's not forget that when AOB was last under the pump before the 2023 golden run, the media reports were that the Knights had approached Des Hasler to gauge interest before he signed with the Titans. Des will likely be sacked at the end of the season if not before.

The Knights carefully weighing their options going forward isn't the worst thing in the world.

 

[Chaister]

I’ve never really understood the “we lose because we tolerate failure” argument. The clubs with the highest coaching turnover are the Titans, Tigers… utterly refusing to tolerate failure & the coaches which keep failing them are rightfully punished for it, I suppose?

How are they going?

I do think the milk has gone sour with AOB and the negatives now outweigh the positives. But you’d think he inherited the 2001 Knights with some of the chat in here. He’s done good things and bad things. Like it or not, the most success we’ve had since Joey retired has been under him. I think “he’s taken us as far as he can” covers it. If you were going to make the comparison with the Premier League, he’s like Sean Dyche. Improved the culture, but way too conservative, and there just seems like there’s a point at which you need to cut the cord.

I’m very glad we don’t go through coaches like they do in European football though. Maybe a third of sackings over there are justified/not premature… and usually just the front office finding a scapegoat for their own failings.

I definitely agree with the part that rapidly changing coaches isn’t the best idea. When people say anyone would be better than AOB it’s pretty misguided as given our squad issues some coaches would 100% do worse. Changing coaches rapidly is also really unattractive to potential coaches and players.

Saying that though I do think we tolerate failure a lot more than successful clubs do. The 12th place clause in AOB’s previous contract was utterly ridiculous and really telling regarding the clubs ambition. I consider finishing 12th as a failure. It shouldn’t be a pass mark and definitely not a clause that a club aiming for success would include, ESPECIALLY when AOB had already taken the side to the finals. Those sort of clauses should stipulate that you expect improvement, not regression as a 12th place finish would suggest.

 

[Seano]

The 12th place clause in AOB’s previous contract was utterly ridiculous and really telling regarding the clubs ambition. I consider finishing 12th as a failure

But an argument could be made that the finishing 12th or above clause at the end of 2023 was just about locking up what they had wrongly assumed was their generational coach for the long term. As it was, the Knights still made the 8 that season.

So still more a mistake rather than a lack of ambition.

 

[Les Misérables]

You're confusing your logical fallacies, champ. You've posted a strawman argument by attacking things I haven't said. A "red herring" is a misleading or distracting element. There was no distraction from me,

I said nothing about luck; I directly referenced your claim that Knights fans tolerate losing and excuse it due to luck. I asked who? And clearly you can't say who because it's something you've made up.

Along with the suggestion that the Knights "tolerate" losing, which is puerile nonsense that you haven't proven.

There is a difference between making mistakes and "tolerating" losing. At the end of 2023, it appeared on the surface that the Knights were heading in the right direction. A season and a half later, it's clear they didn't have the salary cap and recruitment and retention right and that they'd gotten overconfident in their coach.

These are mistakes, and fixing them will take time, and they do need to learn from their mistakes so as not to repeat them, but they can't just $2m no matter how much it upsets you. That's not tolerance, it's just a financial reality.

PS. "Newy is a metropolitan *city* an hour and a half from Greater Sydney,"....You can call it what you like Champ but Newy is a regional centre as far as any kid in Sydney is concerned and getting quality players to come to Newcastle on reasonable money has ALWAYS been a problem. It's also a town that does not have the 3PA money that the Sydney clubs have. That's just a fact. Your unwillingness to deal with these realities doesn't make them excuses.

Quote me, dont paraphrase me. Will make it easier to discuss things.

You paraphrased me, then used your own paraphrasing to take issue with my argument, which had almost nothing to do with 'luck'.

I live in Sydney. I'm very familiar with how Newcastle is viewed. I've recently had a business partner move up to Newy with his family and many old school friends have done the same. It offers things Sydney no longer can. And it now possesses things that it historically lacked. Things have changed radically in the last 5-10 years.

The club made informal but public comments about their difficulties attracting heavyweight 3rd party contracts many years ago. That's not a 2025 problem.

Anyway, its fairly obvious that you want to keep OB around. I want him gone. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Les Misérables]

I’ve never really understood the “we lose because we tolerate failure” argument. The clubs with the highest coaching turnover are the Titans, Tigers… utterly refusing to tolerate failure & the coaches which keep failing them are rightfully punished for it, I suppose?

How are they going?

It plays a part. Im certainly not making the argument that it is all that is required. Im not that naive. My argument is that it is largely what we are lacking. We currently hold a strong financial position, our infrastructure is substantial, our juniors are yielding turnover from years of investment, the signing of POS, other staff and the core of our roster are all very exciting.

What we are missing imo is an intolerance for failure. And we know this is true for the simple fact that the club is clearly prioritising the value liability of OBs contract over the negative cultural affects of keeping him in his position. That is my argument manifest.

If they sack OB some time in the near future Im happy to reconsider my perspective. But until they do, they're just proving me right.