Sack Adam O’Brien

Yes i wasn’t very clear

The point about not trying our juniors is that he isn’t going to play them just to give them experience for next year. He is still trying to keep his job. He’ll play them if he thinks they are ready, like he has done with the guys you mentioned this year

The point about our juniors not being ready, is in reference to the young props that haven’t debuted yet. I didn’t mean it as all our juniors. I should have made that clearer

As much as AOB’s game plan is infuriating, he still does care about his players
 
Not straw manning at all. You’re the one who suggested AOB was causing all the points under your rant.

We get it. You hate AOB.

But to blame him for every issue you listed with the club, many which pre-date him eg having to pay overs for players is ludicrous 😂
Nah lad, re-read what I wrote.

I'm not blaming AOB for every existent issue, I'm claiming that those things *will* result from him keeping his job. As in, from here on out, if he isn't sacked.

Youve been attacking a strawman. I'm not being slippery. Youve just misinterpreted the point I was making.
 
The Knights not being a place players want to go to, want to play out of doesn't ring perfectly true for me though. There was that player poll done at some stage of clubs players would want to play for and Newcastle was ranked very high. This I think was during a period where the Knights were seen as being on the improve, good signings, bright future, players were interested.
Yep that's it. It was after the first Pearce/Ponga season. This happens with any club that hits rock bottom & then starts trending up again, and also it was clear at this time the Knights had money to burn in the cap (which we then used to sign Klemmer on a huge deal). Wouldn't read that much into it tbh.

Really it's Brisbane, Roosters, Storm, Souths for Indigenous players specifically, that have the pull. Then for everyone else it's subject to the fluctuation of form/fate/PR a bit. Nathan Brown was a PR master.
 
I'm really, really strongly against the idea of just "playing the kids" once the season is gone. Firstly the Cup team also sucks so it's guys who are a big part of that team not beating players not good enough for first grade. Second, it sends a horrible message. The jersey has to be earned.
 
This may be over-egging AOB's impact a little bit.

It'd take a lot to overcome the issue of the Knights needing to overpay for new signings. That may just be a fact of life at the club. Nathan Brown definitely seemed to have more sway with potential recruits than AOB does I suppose, but it probably helped a lot that we'd cleared the decks cap wise first... and every player brought in under him, the secret sauce in getting that player over the line may have been the one weird trick of offering way more money than everyone else. Connor Watson got $600K on the back of a *pretty good* start to his career at Easts. Mitchell Pearce picked the Knights because we offered way more money than everyone else let's be real (in real terms, he got a higher % of the gap than Brown, by a fair bit). And signing Ponga, well, no one had offered that kind of money to a kid with so little experience before. That deal was a massive punt. I've also heard disturbing chat about the kind of money Brown offered old old Matt Scott & Paul Gallen to come to the club... but got turned down anyway. There just isn't a period in our history where the Knights are a destination club, unless we were ready to really open the chequebook, and even then that has often not been enough. That's just a fact.

I definitely don't think the style of footy we play right now is appealing to new signings, but I suspect the #1 reason AOB hasn't signed that many players, and the mixture of players he has signed is guys nobody else wanted + middle of the road experienced blokes on overs, is probably because he's coach of the Newcastle Knights, and the Knights pay overs for everyone.

This is the way it is for some clubs no matter who the coach is.

Isaiah Papali'i got overs to go to Penrith and that's four premierships in, led by what may now be regarded as the premier coach of the game, and the money they have to spend to keep their core players is higher than what say the Roosters (and Bulldogs) are allegedly paying their guys. Brian To'o makes over $800K I've heard, for example - I think he's worth it, but no other specialist winger in the comp makes near that. They had four players on a million or more, or thereabouts, in addition (Cleary, Yeo, Fish, Edwards). I wouldn't say any one player has really bent them over a barrell price wise, but likewise I'm not sure any players have "done them a favour" the way Roosters players always magically seem to. And this is the best team most of us will have ever seen. About as great a situation as a player could ask for. Yet they've haemorrhaged great players more than any other club I've seen... and make up the difference with their exceptional player development.

Ricky Stuart is this legend of the sport and has never been able to get an elite player in their prime to the club despite trying over and over again. He has good players in depth now but honestly I think the secret to that for them is that they've gotten guys in young, and clearly their recruitment guys have a great eye for talent. But they too aren't getting discounts from their long term players, and their new signings are expensive. Why did Joe Tapine and Hudson Young go there, fundamentally? Because the Raiders offered a lot more money than the Knights could at the time. They overpaid for young talent they really liked, betting on their ability to correctly identify a young player who would go on to be elite. So basically their signing philosophy is almost that they behave like they would if there was a draft - they chase high upside young talent, where it could be years before the signing pays dividends - they just "draft" their young players by poaching them.

Two clubs clearly doing a lot better than the Knights at putting their roster together, and it's in spite of it being very hard for them to sign new players, and usually needing to overpay to bring new signings in. Heaps of players just don't want to live in Penrith and Canberra, and heaps don't want to live in Newy. Newy should be more appealing than either of those towns but seems to be regarded about the same for whatever reason (hearing Dane talk about when he was signed, to him "Newcastle" just meant "mining" and "industry"... he didn't know there were any beaches for example).

I don't think a new coach fixes that and all of a sudden we're picking up Payne Haas and Jahrome Hughes in the coming months. The fix is internal development and savvier talent ID/recruitment of untried young players. Long-term decision making over trying to fix things immediately after every bad season.
Hey look, dont disagree with much if any of what youve written. I think the problem is that there are no certainties and to deal in absolutes may seem idiotic - because it is in theory. But in practice, we've tried OB. Things are pretty bloody bad and they're getting worse by the week, its actually quite alarming.

So yea, we might bring in a worse coach, things may not improve etc. But lets be real, wtf are the odds of things getting worse if we sack OB?

That's the first and last question everyone including the board needs to be asking themselves.
 
Well you did ask if they would have to pay him out in that situation … sorry if my reply seemed harsh. I work in Employee Relations, so I know all too well what happens in these situations lol.
All good. I wished they'd sort out some way to get rid of him though.
 
We’ve normally got a spot on the bench for a player that sits there most of the night freezing his arse off and playing minimal minutes.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but be aren’t playing finals football.
This is the top 17 position I’d have for our juniors. Start giving them a taste, but not with a sink or swim mentality. Just a taste for them to want more and work harder to be in the permanent line up.
Surely that can’t hurt?
 
Hey look, dont disagree with much if any of what youve written. I think the problem is that there are no certainties and to deal in absolutes may seem idiotic - because it is in theory. But in practice, we've tried OB. Things are pretty bloody bad and they're getting worse by the week, its actually quite alarming.

So yea, we might bring in a worse coach, things may not improve etc. But lets be real, wtf are the odds of things getting worse if we sack OB?

That's the first and last question everyone including the board needs to be asking themselves.
100% agree that it's run its course.

Also just think if you want to try to implement a team that plays fast, open, attacking footy, to make up for not having a traditional 7, AOB really isn't your man. The players are so visibly tense, so tight, constantly second guessing themselves, which indicates me that they get reamed out for mistakes more than they do for lack of effort.

We would deadset be better off with Kevvy. People might laugh at that, but at some point you have to let the boys play. The first thing he did at Brisbane is tear up Seibold's overly complex "game model" and just really drill down on the fundamentals - play fast, play hard, push up, keep competing, have fun. He left most technical stuff to the assistants. Especially when you've got a recruitment manager who's clearly emphasizing athleticism first and foremost, given who he's signed and who he's gone after... do we want to turn these guys into robots? Wouldn't you want them capitalising with offloads etc once they push through the line?
 
Nah lad, re-read what I wrote.

I'm not blaming AOB for every existent issue, I'm claiming that those things *will* result from him keeping his job. As in, from here on out, if he isn't sacked.

Youve been attacking a strawman. I'm not being slippery. Youve just misinterpreted the point I was making.
Where’s that ok champ button 🤣

Ps I’m a lass not a lad ✌🏻
 
Also wouldn't necessarily tear up everything AOB did.

Stuff like the "Knight In Shining Armour" that he brought in, that was good. I do think they defend better now. Try harder. That is good. When he came in he really emphasised resilience, "get comfortable with being uncomfortable", all that, and improved the culture.

I just don't buy into the way he wants them to play footy, and I don't think the players do either. I do wonder if in his head now he thinks, "the culture is fixed, I fixed it, now if they just do my system right we'll win games". I think in reality we're still a ways away from being a top club in terms of effort, toughness, intent, etc.
 
So many effort areas I watch games and just can't believe how slack we are. Yet then watch the game after, no matter who it is and they are head and shoulders above us.

That is standards and culture. We defend well, so the effort is there, but drop right off in other facets of the game that makes the difference.

Just watching NRL 360, and they dedicated a big part of their opening segment to the Broncos and how to fix them. Yet, we play the same or worse than the Broncs and have done for a long while, yet barely rate a mention.

Part of their discussion was around where the blame lies and it all came back to the coach. Coach gets credit for the wins, coach needs to take the responsibility for the losses.

I hate the club being irrelevant.
 
Also wouldn't necessarily tear up everything AOB did.

Stuff like the "Knight In Shining Armour" that he brought in, that was good. I do think they defend better now. Try harder. That is good. When he came in he really emphasised resilience, "get comfortable with being uncomfortable", all that, and improved the culture.

I just don't buy into the way he wants them to play footy, and I don't think the players do either. I do wonder if in his head now he thinks, "the culture is fixed, I fixed it, now if they just do my system right we'll win games". I think in reality we're still a ways away from being a top club in terms of effort, toughness, intent, etc.
Their defence is as good as anything I can remember. If he quit or was sacked tomorrow I’d be grateful for that (the defence, not leaving… well, both actually).
Not that it would work as it’s too late now, but like someone else said, have him here for a defensive coach. Give him a bit extra and he could even give the coach excuses to use when we aren’t winning.
 
I'm really, really strongly against the idea of just "playing the kids" once the season is gone. Firstly the Cup team also sucks so it's guys who are a big part of that team not beating players not good enough for first grade. Second, it sends a horrible message. The jersey has to be earned.
Yes Cup side not going well but they suffer if injuries in firsts means they are missing players that are promoted such as McCarthy, Hunt, along with Jones, Croker, Cant and more recently Bryan who would likely be playing Cup if JSaf, Leo, Elliott, Hetherington, Best, Marzhew, we’re available, this also means that instead of blooding one or two each week we are playing 4-5 under 21s against seniors a season or two early.
We are suffering from having a basic minimum first grade players that has come undone by injuries/suspensions to players in critical positions that require experienced replacements such as props.
We sent DSaf packing, we let Su’a go when he was the nearest to being ready, we are now letting Leo slip, have his brother that looks a season or two away from ready, we have 2-3 young, Flegg age types that are potential but 2-3 seasons away
Letting those players go was understandable but not having ready replacement was the killer.
Hopefully our recruitment improves but available players is a problem, we are likely to struggle for a season or two until our better young players mature and improve I just hope we don’t burn them out before they reach there potential.
We are currently at our weakest but at the same time we are trying to make players, Sharpe has potential but shouldn’t be learning a new position when we are so weak. the spine isn’t working, Ponga looks lost, Sharpe is enthusiastic but at this stage not a 6, Gamble plays hard but he is more a 6 than a 7 and Crossland is enthusiastic goer but is a poor hooker, better at 14 and likely our best 7 but that’s not good, our whole attack is poor because they are not working together and mainly that has meant we’ve lost the Ponga factor, yes injuries come into that.
 
Crossland is enthusiastic goer but is a poor hooker
I don’t think I’ve seen much about this after Friday’s game but for me it definitely showed our limitations at hooker when up against a rep calibre player, albeit one who is towards the end of his career.

Crossland is there for his energy in D and his tackling, that’s about it. The first try the Dragons scored showed how a proper hooker can capitalise on front foot ball.
 
Their defence is as good as anything I can remember. If he quit or was sacked tomorrow I’d be grateful for that (the defence, not leaving… well, both actually).
Not that it would work as it’s too late now, but like someone else said, have him here for a defensive coach. Give him a bit extra and he could even give the coach excuses to use when we aren’t winning.
Is Obi responsible for the Knights defence though?
I thought the Englishman McDermott was responsible for defence, and Green responsible for the attack?
Have I missed something here?
Personally, I still believe the Knights as a club are not as fit as they should be.
Maybe this accounts for energy in defence and nothing left for attack?
I still believe our lack of grunt up front in the forwards is a major reason for our current struggles.
 
Is Obi responsible for the Knights defence though?
I thought the Englishman McDermott was responsible for defence, and Green responsible for the attack?
Have I missed something here?
Personally, I still believe the Knights as a club are not as fit as they should be.
Maybe this accounts for energy in defence and nothing left for attack?
I still believe our lack of grunt up front in the forwards is a major reason for our current struggles.
I'd say he's equally as responsible as he is for the attack, which every man and his dog holds him personally responsible for.
 
Is Obi responsible for the Knights defence though?
I thought the Englishman McDermott was responsible for defence, and Green responsible for the attack?
Have I missed something here?
Personally, I still believe the Knights as a club are not as fit as they should be.
Maybe this accounts for energy in defence and nothing left for attack?
I still believe our lack of grunt up front in the forwards is a major reason for our current struggles.

I don’t like AOB, but if he’s not responsible for the defence then he’s also not responsible for the attack by that logic and likewise if he’s responsible for the attack he’s also responsible for the defence.

Can’t have it both ways.

People like to say he’s 100% responsible for our attack but zero percent responsible for our defence because it doesn’t fit the narrative/agenda that he’s hopeless at everything.

I want the bloke sacked like most everyone else, but the picking and choosing what he’s responsible for to fit agendas is a bit much. As a head coach he’d have some responsibility for all parts of our play, good and bad. If anything I’d argue he’d probably have more to do with our defence given he’s so defensively minded and has opening said Blake Green does our attack…but that’s also just conjecture.
 
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Assistants work on the framework, but the overarching "how the team plays" stuff, that's the head coach. The 2016 Storm - stodgy, grinding team - to the 2017 Storm - probably the first club to play with a really open & fast attacking style to the degree in vogue now, I don't think that's the result of a huge change in the structures the assistants worked on along with Cam, Coop etc. The bigger thing was Bellyache giving more leeway, encouraging more attack from within Melbourne's own 50, etc. That's where I think AOB has an issue, he can't loosen the reins and let players follow their instincts. The issue of the team looking quite clunky and tentative has been an issue more often than not and the only consistent part of the coaching staff over that period has been AOB.
 
I think the concerns are legitimate now. But Wests are going to back the guy they hired so it's their call.

Was curious even with rules favouring attacking teams in the modern game *6again, millions of penalties, sin bins and chances galore to swing momentum etc It seems like AOB has done far less then his coaching counterparts with what you could argue with a better shaped roster. And a roster that he has had time to gel into his own.

2024: 470 PF, 19.6ppg
2023: 626 PF, 26.1ppg
2022: 372 PF 15.5pgg
2021: 428 PF, 17.8ppg
2020: 421 PF, 21ppg *20 games played

Even with some of those big wins in 2023 being masked and inflated by wins over the Bulldogs and Tigers, and even if those first few years were hampered with Covid restrictions theres no reason to be this much worse in attack since the 2023 season.
All I will say is I really hope Hastings is that much if a s**tbloke as they say he is to not want to play with him. At least when he was healthy and at his best the team was doing a lot better. And even that 2024 total ppg probably is better with a more consistent halves pairing with him in it.

Want to compare it to Nathan Brown who had Pearce but probably a worse roster?
2019: 485, 20.2ppg
2018: 414, 17.25ppg

Want to compare it to Rick Stone who lost two forwards to the Wicks scandal in 2010 then found out he was being replaced early in 2011? Also a far worse roster
2011: 478, 19.9ppg
2010: 499, 20.8ppg

Want to compare it to Brian Smith? who picked up guys no one had heard of, back up players, and discards off other teams sprinkled in with a bit of the local talent? Also on paper you'd argue worse
2009: 508, 21.2ppg
2009: 516, 21.5ppg
 
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