Adam O'Brien replacement?

So clearly there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
There's only one way for Newcastle to skin a cat.
They aren't a rich club in a popular location, so don't have any of the advantages needed to win the signings roulette game.
As Allan Bell said, we brought through a good group who all learnt to play the same style and trust each other, and we won a few premierships.
 
I've been saying it for years.
That podcast with Ben Darwin yesterday said it.
Andrew Johns has talked about it.
Phil Gould is always talking about it.
In last week's Toohey podcast Allan Bell was on about it.

The thing that works for most successful clubs, and the only thing that has ever won the Knights a premiership, is to put together a side that comes through the grades together and is playing for more than money.

We have been trying to buy a premiership since the day Brian Smith walked through the door, with a spectacular lack of success.

Half the posts on here are about which reject from another club is going to be the answer to all our problems for a million bucks - and the answer is none of them - they'll all just take the money, go through the motions, and go to France for a working holiday.
Do you think there is really a meaningful number of NRL players who think 'If I was playing for my hometown team, I would try beyond the money. But I'm not, so I wont?'

It's such a false dichotomy when people say that 'Newcastle won a premiership with homegrown talent, but haven't been able to since with outside players'. We had the greatest player of all time come through our juniors. We won two comps because we had Andrew Johns. Would have won them if he was born in Cessnock or born in Bondi.

I don't think the Cowboys are kicking themselves for signing Thurston because he wasn't from Townsville, and how many of the Melbourne core were born in Victoria...

It's about getting talented players, not about where they grew up.
 
Do you think there is really a meaningful number of NRL players who think 'If I was playing for my hometown team, I would try beyond the money. But I'm not, so I wont?'

It's such a false dichotomy when people say that 'Newcastle won a premiership with homegrown talent, but haven't been able to since with outside players'. We had the greatest player of all time come through our juniors. We won two comps because we had Andrew Johns. Would have won them if he was born in Cessnock or born in Bondi.

I don't think the Cowboys are kicking themselves for signing Thurston because he wasn't from Townsville, and how many of the Melbourne core were born in Victoria...

It's about getting talented players, not about where they grew up.
And how's that working out for you?
 
This “the players should be able to do X every week without the coach needing to tell them” **** is just the wrong way to look at it, it really is. Players aren’t robots and there are all sorts of things which can affect motivation and performance.

Everyone has had a lot of sympathy for Clifford’s poor performances recently once they heard the *rumour* that his wife has taken his kid away from him and decamped back to North Queensland. So there clearly is some understanding that performance can be affected and it’s not purely an effort thing.

Here’s some hypothetical other things which can affect you I reckon. Just some hypotheticals:

- You have a really rigid, domineering & technical coach who demands sets are structured in a very specific way and that if you run very specific lines/plays at specific times, you will score points… and you do what he says but your attack is just gobbled up by the defence like it’s child’s play, and he blames you for not doing it right.
- You do some stuff in attack which does produce points, but the coach gets mad at you for not running HIS plays, not playing HIS way…
- You feel overloaded with too much information when you go onto the field and focus in really hard on the stuff the coach has been drilling into you, consequently you or your teammates let some core tenets fall by the wayside and you end up with big defensive issues.
- You witness your coach have a blow up at a player and you don’t think they deserved it, or you cop the hair dryer treatment and you don’t think it’s justified.
- So you come into work every day to take orders from a boss you don’t respect but have to kowtow to, do a bunch of stuff on the field you don’t believe is gonna work, and then cop a pasting from the coach for not doing the stuff he said you should do even though you were and the stuff is just crap, it doesn’t work.
- Kurt Mann is playing lock and keeps getting run over in defence, taking everyone’s space away in attack, and generally ****ing up. You don’t think he should be in the run-on team but the coach has his favourites, he’s one of them and you’re not.

Not saying all of this is exactly what’s happening but my read is that at least some of it definitely is.

This is exactly what happened with Seibold and with a coach who’s really rigid and specific and technical like it seems like AOB is, it always gets worse than it does with a your “just go out there and RIP IN” passion merchants like Kevvy Walters.

I just keep going back to the degeneration of the attack year on year and the total lack of any capacity to do good yardage sets as these two things that are gonna kill any faith in the coach hey. Like it’s a really really hard game when a huge cohort of the players doesn’t have belief in what they’re doing. If you’ve ever worked under a boss you thought was an idiot who was focusing on the wrong things and giving dumb direction and feedback, you know the feeling, you know how enervating it is. Does it not seem like that’s what’s happening with the players? And then when there’s a lack of belief, a lack of trust, doesn’t matter how much effort there is - effort in the same direction is amplified (see Melbourne; Penrith) and in different directions is diffused (see: Newcastle; Wests).
I'm glad someone mentioned It.

How In the hell did they find It more critical to retain Kurt Mann and absolutely **** up retaining Conner Watson?

Retardation or Favouritism?
 
There's only one way for Newcastle to skin a cat.
They aren't a rich club in a popular location, so don't have any of the advantages needed to win the signings roulette game.
As Allan Bell said, we brought through a good group who all learnt to play the same style and trust each other, and we won a few premierships.
Totally agree, the only way we are going to reach our potential is when Garth Brennan has sorted our juniors.
 
The juniors have always dominated or done just as good as the Panthers… only thing is none of them kick on. That’s gotta be put on the coaches through the grades starting now at AOB as FG coach. He just isn’t a good coach. His defeated demeanour has rubbed off on the players and they are rolling over at the first sign of adversity.
 
Do you think there is really a meaningful number of NRL players who think 'If I was playing for my hometown team, I would try beyond the money. But I'm not, so I wont?'

It's such a false dichotomy when people say that 'Newcastle won a premiership with homegrown talent, but haven't been able to since with outside players'. We had the greatest player of all time come through our juniors. We won two comps because we had Andrew Johns. Would have won them if he was born in Cessnock or born in Bondi.

I don't think the Cowboys are kicking themselves for signing Thurston because he wasn't from Townsville, and how many of the Melbourne core were born in Victoria...

It's about getting talented players, not about where they grew up.
I would also add that the Brian Smith era was a lot more successful than the "back our juniors" Nathan Brown era.

Any successful club needs a mixture of both ... or a very good club culture like Melbourne that allows players to come in and play to their potential. Look at how Josh King has done there.

Newcastle hasn't had that culture for a long time, in that respect it doesn't matter where the players are coming from, they're not going to produce results.

If we did have a junior production line that was well coached throughout and came to first grade where there was a winning culture then of course that would be ideal.

But blindly saying our team should be all local juniors isn't the answer.
 
And how's that working out for you?
I don't really know what you're asking.

It's been more than 20 years since we won anything. So I guess hoping that we make smart recruitment decisions on the full pool of first grade talent in Australia is working just as poorly as crossing your fingers that the second coming of Joey will be born in the hunter....
 
As far I’m aware the club kind of has been trying to develop local kids the whole time, it’s not like it wasn’t a priority. The big issue was a lack of resources. That’s how you end up with stuff like the infamous brushing of Latrell Mitchell, limited resources means you have to pick and choose which kids you invest in, and a kid like Brock Lamb seemed like a safer bet in terms of temperament and all that. Then there’s been according to many a bit of a favouritism towards local kids (which was the first thing Wests changed, they went out and started trying to nick young fellas among other places New Zealand) - so they’d identify a local kid fairly young, stick with them, have them learn their game in a fairly non-competitive environment and then… often the kid didn’t pan out.

So then you need to try and “buy” a competitive team because you can’t produce good enough first graders short of the good fortune of the next all time great halfback, hooker and lock being born at John Hunter.

The big difference Wests should be able to make is actually giving us the money we need and by all accounts that is happening, I think it’s fairer to judge the club on this count in a few years. If by 2025-6 we’re still debuting Phoenix Crosslands rather than Tom Deardens or even Braydon Trindalls, that’s when you can say we’ve got a competence problem.
 
I'm glad someone mentioned It.

How In the hell did they find It more critical to retain Kurt Mann and absolutely **** up retaining Conner Watson?
The Knights offered Connor more money and 3 years instead of 2. He made a decision to leave and head to the Roosters for his own reasons but I’m glad the club didn’t overpay.
 
We should be happy to lose both of them lol. We’d be in such a better place if neither ever came to the club and we retained Nick Meaney and Tom Starling for example.

Sick to the gills of utilities tbh, they only call you a ‘utility’ if you’re not that good. They call Brandon Smith a hooker even though he’s equally good as a middle forward. How many good sides carry an out and out ‘utility’ at 14 and how many just select their best reserve hooker, half or fullback there?
 
Brian Smith took a million dollars out of our juniors to put into senior squads. Most of our trainers and coaches for juniors in that era were unpaid volunteers.
Tinkler put a lot of money back into the juniors. At the time I had reservations about the plan they came up with of training a small number of outstanding juniors in what they called "high performance" squads to a near professional level - but the scheme was developed by ex Australian coach Graham Murray and Wayne Bennett, so who was I to call them wrong? A lot of these guys we spent big money on at age 14 - Lamb, Cogger, Jones, Hoy, Starling, Crossland, Madden, Musgrove, Pezet - were fantastic players up to the age of 18 - miles ahead of anyone in their agegroup across the NRL - but as soon as they hit 18, some big kids like the Saifiti twins would go ahead of them just by growing tall.
Penrith went the other way and trained up big squads as equals and not pick a handful of "elite" 14 year olds to concentrate on.
We have also been buying up fantastic junior players from across the country. Who can forget Beau Henry, Kyle O'Donnell, Garrett Smith, Jaelen Feeney, Zane Camroux and 50 odd Kiwis - all fantastic till age 18.

Anyway - my opinion is that you need to give a lot of kids a good education in the game and some of them - often the ones you don't expect - will kick on after they enter seniors.
 
I truly believe for the club to be a strong performer long term they need to focus on their juniors and get those systems in place to be churning out consistent competent NRL players, not super stars, but consistent NRL first graders. There should be a sprinkling of superstars in their anyhow.

These players tend to stay for cheaper making salary cap management much easier.

But you can't just have an NRL team full of juniors, so the team needs to be scouring regions for young talent and bringing them to the club early and working them through with our juniors. And this clearly includes islanders and england etc.

Finally, we need to fill a roster and will need to buy in talent already established in first grade. Can't ensure we will have good quality spine players but those are clearly key so need to fill those spots with quality and that is where the savings on those juniors comes to play.

The club needs to go on a promotion blitz and maintain it all around the hunter trying to ensure all junior players have that asperation to play for the Knights.

Brock Lamb, Dylan Pythian, Jack Cogger, Nick Meaney are names that come to mind that are talents we have squandered simply by hitting grade in to a ****house NRL team that chewed them up and spat them back out.

Brock Lamb especially I think was the better talent out of that lot, but was a dead man walking straight from the outset as the team was vrey poor, gave him no chance to find his feet in the NRL, got hammered with criticism and sent packing.

Mark Hughes is a great example, I love Mark Hughes but being brutal he was a fairly average player, but survived in the top grade largely because of the team of players he was with. A player like him wouldn't last in our squad today.
 
Do you think there is really a meaningful number of NRL players who think 'If I was playing for my hometown team, I would try beyond the money. But I'm not, so I wont?'

It's such a false dichotomy when people say that 'Newcastle won a premiership with homegrown talent, but haven't been able to since with outside players'. We had the greatest player of all time come through our juniors. We won two comps because we had Andrew Johns. Would have won them if he was born in Cessnock or born in Bondi.

I don't think the Cowboys are kicking themselves for signing Thurston because he wasn't from Townsville, and how many of the Melbourne core were born in Victoria...

It's about getting talented players, not about where they grew up.

The flip side of that coin is that if Andrew Johns was born in Bondi, he never plays for the Knights!
 
The flip side of that coin is that if Andrew Johns was born in Bondi, he never plays for the Knights!

And we have zero premierships.

I think waiting for the next immortal to be born in the hunter is as likely to yield success as buying other teams cast offs personally.

I'm interested to see how the focus on English players works out though.
 
And we have zero premierships.

I think waiting for the next immortal to be born in the hunter is as likely to yield success as buying other teams cast offs personally.

I'm interested to see how the focus on English players works out though.

I agree, I wasn't suggesting we do that either. Just responding to the comment.

You can see my opinion above on what I think the club needs to be doing.
 
I truly believe for the club to be a strong performer long term they need to focus on their juniors and get those systems in place to be churning out consistent competent NRL players, not super stars, but consistent NRL first graders. There should be a sprinkling of superstars in their anyhow.

These players tend to stay for cheaper making salary cap management much easier.

But you can't just have an NRL team full of juniors, so the team needs to be scouring regions for young talent and bringing them to the club early and working them through with our juniors. And this clearly includes islanders and england etc.

Finally, we need to fill a roster and will need to buy in talent already established in first grade. Can't ensure we will have good quality spine players but those are clearly key so need to fill those spots with quality and that is where the savings on those juniors comes to play.

The club needs to go on a promotion blitz and maintain it all around the hunter trying to ensure all junior players have that asperation to play for the Knights.

Brock Lamb, Dylan Pythian, Jack Cogger, Nick Meaney are names that come to mind that are talents we have squandered simply by hitting grade in to a ****house NRL team that chewed them up and spat them back out.

Brock Lamb especially I think was the better talent out of that lot, but was a dead man walking straight from the outset as the team was vrey poor, gave him no chance to find his feet in the NRL, got hammered with criticism and sent packing.

Mark Hughes is a great example, I love Mark Hughes but being brutal he was a fairly average player, but survived in the top grade largely because of the team of players he was with. A player like him wouldn't last in our squad today.
Get outta my head!
My thoughts exactly - well except that I don't think lamb would end up that great.
 
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