HarVeeGee13
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
Just think people are a bit bored with it.
Justin Holbrook discussion
- Thread starter jamesgould
- Start date
frankLauda
Tony Butterfield
He’s getting polite bashings from media pundits. Everyone knows he wasn’t a good coach here. We are all past it now, and look to the future with Holbrook. Only two games in but confident he will do great things with the club.
slotmachine
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
In fairness AOB had us defending like a team that gave a ****, and that seems to have continued under holbrook.
Sometimes the simplest reasons are the most accurate, did his best with the roster at his disposal, thankful there were more finals appearances then not.
But it was time for a change and a new voice after six seasons because it wasn’t the same as it once was and that’s okay too.
Hopefully Holbrook sticks around for jut as long if not longer pending results.
Can always be worse, can be a career killer like the Titans or spend a mint on a more ‘established’ coach like Seibold or Flanno and get worse results for what they’d command $$$ wise.
HarVeeGee13
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
I think it eventually got too hard last season and the players got burned out, but before AOB arrived we had no ticker, unprofessional standards, and he did improve that.
Unquestionably though it was time for a change and I have a really good feeling about Holbrook. Gee I hope it’s not just a six year thing. I want us to find our 20 years+ guy. I hope this is our Wayne Bennett at Brisbane, our Bellamy.
Certain coaches simply don’t have that sort of tenure in them, they kill themselves with the stress. AOB clearly one, he looks like he’s aged 25 years since he started with us. Madge will never be anywhere longer than the 6 years he was at Souths. But for others it seems like the job is just a source of joy which keeps them young. I get that sort of vibe from Holbrook, on top of him seeming like a truly brilliant footy mind.
Unquestionably though it was time for a change and I have a really good feeling about Holbrook. Gee I hope it’s not just a six year thing. I want us to find our 20 years+ guy. I hope this is our Wayne Bennett at Brisbane, our Bellamy.
Certain coaches simply don’t have that sort of tenure in them, they kill themselves with the stress. AOB clearly one, he looks like he’s aged 25 years since he started with us. Madge will never be anywhere longer than the 6 years he was at Souths. But for others it seems like the job is just a source of joy which keeps them young. I get that sort of vibe from Holbrook, on top of him seeming like a truly brilliant footy mind.
Kurriboy
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
@Billy said a while back now something like a coach has 3 seasons at a club and if things aren't working they need to be moved on. It was something along those lines.
I think we have progressed from Brown who came here to essentially bite the bullet and re-structure our cap, he did so and we won spoons along the way, OB next progressed us somewhat bringing a positive outlook to the club, got our defence in order but just didn't have the skills as a coach to get our attack firing consistently. He overstayed by several years and what could have been seen as a positive split ended up with a large portion of the fan base cheerleading his sacking.
Now we have Holbrook who it is fair to say is only 2 games in and a long road ahead. Way too early to proclaim him "what we need", but positive signs from the playing group so fingers crossed. And again, you tend to see a positive reaction from a team with a new coach.
How will we think about Holbrook in a few seasons is the question.
I think we have progressed from Brown who came here to essentially bite the bullet and re-structure our cap, he did so and we won spoons along the way, OB next progressed us somewhat bringing a positive outlook to the club, got our defence in order but just didn't have the skills as a coach to get our attack firing consistently. He overstayed by several years and what could have been seen as a positive split ended up with a large portion of the fan base cheerleading his sacking.
Now we have Holbrook who it is fair to say is only 2 games in and a long road ahead. Way too early to proclaim him "what we need", but positive signs from the playing group so fingers crossed. And again, you tend to see a positive reaction from a team with a new coach.
How will we think about Holbrook in a few seasons is the question.
HarVeeGee13
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
Yeah true, I’m factoring in that he’s also the only head coach to make the Titans somewhat decent in well over a decade though. Along with his footy mind being a definitively proven thing, listen to anyone at the Roosters talk about him.
Just impossible to predict how things can go. Cleary admitted in his book he nearly thought about quitting in 2019 because he wasn't getting results straight away in his second stint. Also had that horror injury run in 2015 (like we did last year) which plays on a coaches mind being able to get whatever he can out of players. Didnt help the media were ****ting on him for leaving the Tigers but he had the last laugh, and continues to, to this day.
You need an incredible stroke of luck and good fortune to have a coach last that long these days. Goes hand in hand with having a stable/well run team/office I guess. Dont need to mention who those are now.
Look at how consistently stable the Broncos were until they had boardroom issues and squabbling between the office and the coach...and now they've finally gotten it right since.
But yeah its rare that coaches can have multiple years of bad results and survive (errr Brown, whether it can be taken as a good thing they gave him too much of a long leash I dont know) in hindsight most would agree it wasnt...but that was before Wests etc, surviving post Bennett/Tinkler...
How often have teams shown patience to be rewarded...maybe the Eels with Arthur? Spoon to Grand Final?
You need an incredible stroke of luck and good fortune to have a coach last that long these days. Goes hand in hand with having a stable/well run team/office I guess. Dont need to mention who those are now.
Look at how consistently stable the Broncos were until they had boardroom issues and squabbling between the office and the coach...and now they've finally gotten it right since.
Its a double edged sword, no one wants to go to a team with what is perceived as a caretaker coach (The sharks for a few years with Morris until they settled on Fitzgibbon for example), at the same time if a team changes coaches heaps of times that isn't the best look (Warriors after Cleary who had how many? lol, have seemed to find something in Webster now), but there were also some other issues going on there around the time SJ left (mentioned in his book which didnt help, he even admitted how frustrating it was changing coaches so quickly, but those could be put down to bad hires.
But yeah its rare that coaches can have multiple years of bad results and survive (errr Brown, whether it can be taken as a good thing they gave him too much of a long leash I dont know) in hindsight most would agree it wasnt...but that was before Wests etc, surviving post Bennett/Tinkler...
I guess would we rather a coach overstay a bit out of good faith and hope they turn things around or be ruthless and cut them if things look like they're pearshaped, which can work (Broncos with Walters to Maguire) but you have to have someone in waiting available too
How often have teams shown patience to be rewarded...maybe the Eels with Arthur? Spoon to Grand Final?
HarVeeGee13
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
100%, luck is a huge part of it. And a lot of firings are the coach copping the blame for institutional failures at the club. The head coach is always subordinate to a board/director of football who are never going to look in the mirror and say “maybe I’m the problem”. That’s why there is a hard limit on what can be achieved at clubs like Wests, Parramatta, St George-Illawarra, etc.
Ivan Cleary is the most illustrative example of how much impact the head coach has. He had a losing record until everything finally came together with the current Penrith machine. Clearly he’s very good at his job, but he could only make Wests, mid-2010’s Penrith and early 2010’s NZ into respectable teams. Not great ones.
Where I’m heartened with Holbrook is that for months what all of us were saying about AOB have been vindicated: High %, grinding tactics are not right for this roster; he was bringing misery and stress into the joint; he’s out of step tactically with the modern game; while he can get players in better shape & defending better, playmakers and other key players don’t improve in attack & “footy smarts” under him. The punters shouldn’t be able to have such a nasty read on the head coach.
Meanwhile, what have a lot of us including me being rabbiting on about all pre-season? Dylan Brown has to play on the left; Kalyn Ponga as the “lead playmaker” from the back won’t work, he can only play a specific way; you absolutely have to settle on your spine and train like that all pre-season, shifting guys around in different spots is dumb. Small sample size so far I know but it absolutely looks like Justin is right, not us, not me. And that’s the way it should be!
Everything he’s trying to do makes sense when you see it in action. Everything it felt like AOB had wrong, it seems like he’s fixing. So far so good.
Think that’s a bit harsh on Cleary at the Warriors … 2006 finished 10th, but started the year on -4 points due to salary cap breaches, 2007 finished 4th but lost both finals, 2008 finished 8th but made the GF qualifier, 2009 finished 14th (Sonny Fai pre-season death), 2010 finished 5th, made the grand final in first grade, NSW Cup and Toyota Cup.
That’s a very solid record, a bit more than respectable, and I think many (including players I’ve heard interviewed) think the club was on the verge of something very big if he hadn’t been let go.
I think signs have always been there he’s a great coach, but he did start very young. Can’t beat experience, and I’m sure those earlier stints as head coach have helped Holbrook a lot, too,
He did his apprenticeship under Ricky Stuart coaching one of the lower division Roosters teams back then (with John Cartwright), might have won a premiereship there, I think with the lower division team, so the potential was always there. I'm sure Gus saw something in him when he brought him to Penrith when he was both coaching him at the Roosters then under his supervision there as a coach as well (probably helped having a solid resume at the Warriors then) But I guess its a good place to start if you're willing to relocate (many have the luxury of not needing to)
Similar to Ciraldo when he came to the Panthers as a player then as a coach, then to the Bulldogs.
Funny how timing can be. RIcky gets sacked once Ivan becomes head coach of the Warriors and they're a bit of a basket case for a number of years with some results.
Imagine if Ivan stuck around with a sniff of being head coach there, mentoring young Mitchell Pearce. I mean they've still done well regardless even if a big (most) of the reason is star players falling into their lap.
Similar to Ciraldo when he came to the Panthers as a player then as a coach, then to the Bulldogs.
Funny how timing can be. RIcky gets sacked once Ivan becomes head coach of the Warriors and they're a bit of a basket case for a number of years with some results.
Imagine if Ivan stuck around with a sniff of being head coach there, mentoring young Mitchell Pearce. I mean they've still done well regardless even if a big (most) of the reason is star players falling into their lap.
Frank McWilliams
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
HarVeeGee13
Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus
I think that’s kind of what I’m saying though, they were in a bad way, he got them to 50/50 over his tenure, whatever word you want to use for that as an overall record you can, but then he got fired because they weren’t one of the top teams. But he probably deserved most of the credit for them not being horrible.
He was almost certainly doing a great job there, and at Penrith, and at Wests. I don’t think he magically flipped a switch at the start of 2020. What you can achieve is limited by the decision makers above you, who’ll then blame you for their own mistakes and sack you.
Certainly some coaches are holding their club back too and need to be fired though, and they keep the job too long. You wouldn’t say it’s something clubs consistently get right.
For some reason I thought he was signed by Penrith whilst still maybe being under contract for a year at the Warriors (then he got the release after the Warriors didn't extend him)...maybe they were hesistant at giving him more job security despite their best results under him but not being sure if he could take them to the next level, maybe he wanted to come back to Sydney too which is fair. 3 finals appearances in 10 years (which is okay for a team that had only been around for 10 years) to 4 in 6 years.
Again just interesting how SJ's developement would have been if he stayed and mentored him there. No coincidence the Warriors good runs have coincided with having good halfbacks, going back to Stacey Jones in the early 2000s, and then Metcalf now and SJs second stint there.
And where does all this Cleary talk intertwine with Justin Holbrook?, that halfbacks regardless of experience in first grade make good coaches. One that will be an interesting watch when he retires is Adam Reynolds, already well known its something he's keen to get into so it will be an interesting observation.
Again just interesting how SJ's developement would have been if he stayed and mentored him there. No coincidence the Warriors good runs have coincided with having good halfbacks, going back to Stacey Jones in the early 2000s, and then Metcalf now and SJs second stint there.
And sometimes clubs hold coaches back heh, cough Tigers...though I think they've got something in Benji.
And where does all this Cleary talk intertwine with Justin Holbrook?, that halfbacks regardless of experience in first grade make good coaches. One that will be an interesting watch when he retires is Adam Reynolds, already well known its something he's keen to get into so it will be an interesting observation.
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feels different already. we don't have a coach that's all about completion rates and kick-chase pressure and all that dull, robotic boring stuff that is depressing to watch and...and...sorry putting myself to sleep there. i think the shackles have been broken this year and it's time to let the ball sing.
How many times have we won the first two games only to flop the third?I remember Obrien won his fist 2 games as coach
Feels like it’s a common occurrence when we don’t start the season slow
Then there was that bizzaro 2015 year won 3 or 4 first games then the rest is a blur