Where Do We Stand & Where Should We?

Wagyu Patty

Wagyu Patty

Dank memes n' big screens
Before anything else I want to preface by saying I'm proud of the team for another run to the finals and for successfully making the Top 8.

But where do we stand as a club? How do we take the extra step?

It's clear that the grinding AOB ball DOES have a place somewhere in the modern game, but I think almost every rugby league fan would agree that it's not an ideal week-in week-out tactic.

So, we've seen the run of 10 last season where we scored points like there was no other choice, and also the run this season where we've grafted our way into the finals and worn teams down.

How do we bring the two together and become a team who consistently completes for the Top 4 and has a strong holding in the Finals Series? Do we have the roster strength to be that sort of side and how do we ensure that we don't get outgrown by the other clubs in the competition undergoing rebuilding phases?

Interested to see everyone's thoughts.
 
I think the biggest issue with the club is our gambles at halfback keep failing. Pearce was ok, left us in a really bad situation though deciding to go to France a week before the 2022 preseason. Clifford for whatever reason another gamble that did not come off, then Hastings showed promise but seems to have lost his legs.

With Ponga I don’t even think we need elite halfback play just average to competent and this team could go to the next level.
 
A most interesting thread.

I'd start by saying there really isn't that much difference between teams 5 and 12 in my eyes. To push in to the top 4 requires a very consistent season. To do it three years in a row requires consistency to be ingrained in the walls of the club.

We are playing a style of football which is designed to make sure the game doesn't get loose, that most tackles players make are made when our line is set. We have come a long way this year in controlling the ruck since the roosters game where we let things get loose. The other day, against a Dolphins team with some real strike players, we looked pretty comfortable with what we needed to defend.

This style is like the storm circa 2014-17. Taking the options to keep pressure off us. I think we are doing that pretty well. If that continues, you don't need much of a rise in attack to win 3 more games then we won this year and you are entrenched in the top four.
 
I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong that trying to force a tight, grinding contest where the opposition has to take major risks to create opportunities is a good way to play. It’s really Penrith’s bread and butter and how they’re so dominant without having the attacking flash and flourish of their main rivals over this era. The key things are (1) you need to have the right kind of roster for it (Leo is a pressureball prop, Dan Saifiti is absolutely not, for example) and (2) you do need to still do stuff with the ball which carries some small risk in order to apply maximum pressure (eg judicious offloading, changes of angles, contesting kicks when safe to do so and there’s a high chance of forcing an error).

I do think we’ve incorporated stuff from point 2 into the game plan more lately and we know how process driven AOB is, he went max conservative in response to our alarmingly bad ruck defence earlier in the year and was only happy to loosen the reins a bit once he was happy with how we were going in that regard I guess.

Other big key plank of the play style is the kicking game. No you’re probably not going to boot the ball into orbit and risk giving away seven tackle sets, but you do want kicks which help apply pressure - a variety of well-chosen options. Force repeat sets, sometimes kick early to make the fullback bring it out of their corner, and - crazy as this may sound - put in kicks which may lead to a try being scored. I’ve gotta say, the degree to which this aspect of the game has been better for the last couple of weeks or so, I’m inclined to put it down to player failings rather than coach. Cogger has been very good, smart, compared to Gamble who’s decently effective but lacks variety and imagination, and Hastings who’s been indefensibly pathetic on that front.
 
The obvious one is we need a halfback that is even just ok and stay on the paddock. Do we target Trindall or go all in on Pezet?

I think we also lack a real leader in the forward pack or an enforcer. Those players aren't easy to find.

Fletcher Sharpe coming in on the right wing has helped finally finding our replacement for Voldemort.

Despite some of AOB's obvious faults, he has done a good job getting us to 4 out of 5 finals appearances. We should be doing better imo but after the grim last decade, I'd say I'm glad we've consistently been in the 8 now.
 
One thing that stands out for me over AOB’s tenure is we’ve beaten teams 5-17 pretty consistently, and really struggled to beat teams 1-4. But there’s been so many times we’ve lost to 1-4 in golden point, or lost by 2-6 points. Feels like we’re 90% of the way there, but just can’t make that next step. Lack of a quality halfback has to be a big part of it, a lot of the time the big name player in the other side is what gets them across the line.
 
Very clearly the halves are the problem. Cogger and Crossland aren't the solution in the long term. Even with Ponga, our spine as a whole is in the lower bracket. We need a change in attitude, we cannot keep starting seasons terribly, and taking half way through the season to start looking like a dangerous team. Also, if we're to become a better team, we need to become way more ruthless. Far too often in games we're winning, even against lesser teams, we're just trying to hold on and not overwhelm teams.
 
Braydon Trindall has quietly had a pretty bloody good season. Arguably better than Nicho. Barely anyone seems to be talking about him but his ability to create points compares well with pretty much any other half atm (and I think he actually plays better as the dominant half, playing second fiddle to Nicho and posting up mostly on the left side doesn’t get the best out of him IMO). If there was a realistic chance of us getting him, I do think he’s worth pretty big money now, and it may be worth copping another year of Cogger/Gamble and whoever else next year and getting him in 2026.

On the flip side, you would have been bold to predict Tricky would be as good as he is now when he was 21 (I always liked the look of him but I can’t say I expected him to average close to two try involvements per game in his mid 20’s), and Jonah at 20-21 is comfortably better than Tricky was. Also performed better in his first ten or so first grade games. There would be a real chance of at least getting Jonah through the door for 2025 and maybe ready to play first grade before the season is out.

I would be happy with pursuing either course.
 
jamesgould said:
One thing that stands out for me over AOB’s tenure is we’ve beaten teams 5-17 pretty consistently, and really struggled to beat teams 1-4. But there’s been so many times we’ve lost to 1-4 in golden point, or lost by 2-6 points. Feels like we’re 90% of the way there, but just can’t make that next step. Lack of a quality halfback has to be a big part of it, a lot of the time the big name player in the other side is what gets them across the line.
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We've only won 4 times and drawn once against the top 4 sides in 5 seasons under AOB.

2020 drew with Penrith
2021 beat Manly without KP
2022 n/a
2023 beat Melbourne and Warriors
2024 beat Melbourne minus their halves
 
jamesgould said:
But there’s been so many times we’ve lost to 1-4 in golden point, or lost by 2-6 points. Feels like we’re 90% of the way there, but just can’t make that next step. Lack of a quality halfback has to be a big part of it, a lot of the time the big name player in the other side is what gets them across the line.
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Yeah, lack a clutch player for sure. KP is as talented as anyone but he's not really that. Record in golden point overall speaks to this, not just against the good teams.
 
slotmachine said:
Yeah, lack a clutch player for sure. KP is as talented as anyone but he's not really that. Record in golden point overall speaks to this, not just against the good teams.
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The only time I really remember him doing it was Origin 3, 2022, when he really carried the Maroons over the line for a series win. Even then it was Ben Hunt who iced the cake, though.
 
If I play the OB is ok game, then we need a quality halfback that can take over running the show and steering us around the park, getting us where we need to be and when.

That will alleviate KP needing to take on too much of that role and hopefully free him up to just concentrate on being a fullback weapon we need him to be.

Forwards, get rid of the safs they are both not what todays game needs. We need a more mobile pack.

Hooker, ID like to see Crossland move back there as the energy he brings to the team, we need.
 
slotmachine said:
Yeah, lack a clutch player for sure. KP is as talented as anyone but he's not really that. Record in golden point overall speaks to this, not just against the good teams.
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I think KP’s very cool under pressure, basically created a golden try against the Sharks a few weeks ago if Gagai gets it right and Kennedy doesn’t tip away the ball which would have put Kalyn in under the posts. Also there was that break at the death vs the Roosters which should have been rewarded with a sin bin and shot at goal when he was held down for ten seconds after he was tackled (also - where was the support?). He’s just not a noted field goal kicker, which is honestly a pretty rare skill in fullbacks anyway.

Hasn’t really had much opportunity to get good at it either. Something which takes time and he hasn’t actually played in many of our games decided by 1 point except when Pearce was here.
 
Facilities.
That's the key for us.
We are suddenly an attractive club for juniors to come to, because we have great fields and gyms for them to train at.
We are currently building a grandstand and change rooms just for the lower grades and we have plans to build a big player accommodation near to the training facilities.
Michael Dobson has been a fulltime development coach for a few years.
I assume he will be replaced by another fulltime coach. I think I know who it will be, and I consider him an upgrade on Dobson, but it hasn't been announced yet.
The way the squad is being managed, I expect Cant, Sua, McCarthy, Bryan and maybe McKewn and a few others will play some firstgrade for us next year, and we'll get a steady stream of juniors emerging from then on.
 
I can see many good points above on how we can move to the next level and agree with many of the suggestions around the structure of our spine...I think the other thing we desperately need for a season or 2 is some significant luck in our key players staying healthy for significant periods of time across a whole season.

With a squad that potentially has a good mix of journeymen players, who can deliver the key elements of AOB Ball and mix that with a spread of key quality players who can be on the field for 80-90% of the season together, I think we have the capacity to develop and sustain a brand of football that allows us to compete with any team on our day.

That 10 run streak last season was a reflection of what we can do when we have a stable playing roster that can build momentum and confidence over a sustained period.

And while the win-loss ratio doesn't look good for our stats against top 4 teams, I think we have actually been very competitive with teams this year like the Storm(in Melbourne), Panthers(in Penrith), etc. in those big occasions...our biggest issue with consistency has tended to be where we have capitulated against teams we should be dominating - if we played with the same commitment and consistency that saw narrow losses against these top tier teams when we play the middle of the road and bottom teams, we could have been up much closer to the top 4 by season's end.

Do we need a few key signings for next year, sure. All clubs need those, like a quality organising half would be a big benefit..

Along the same lines as Billy, what I do think is that we are on the cusp of benefitting from some of the back of house structures and changes that are now been bedded down (Parr, O'Sullivan, Centre of Excellence, etc), a solid financial platform with Wests, developing a quality juniors program that are becoming first grade ready.

I posted in another thread, some details that caught my eye about the Storm 'system'. What it highlighted to me is that long term success is driven as much by attracting and retaining quality personnel in the back of house, as it is in attracting players with a high ceiling and having the ability to maximise their potential on the park.

Are we going to be a dominating force next year in the NRL...we are probably not there yet BUT I think we are genuinely creating all the right building blocks that will keep us creeping up the table as a future top tier club. And, on top of all our natural attributes. that should regularly see us in the mix as a top 6 operation. And that is when all your efforts start getting baked into the culture that can maintain sustainable success.
 
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Celticman98 said:
The obvious one is we need a halfback that is even just ok and stay on the paddock. Do we target Trindall or go all in on Pezet?

I think we also lack a real leader in the forward pack or an enforcer. Those players aren't easy to find.

Fletcher Sharpe coming in on the right wing has helped finally finding our replacement for Voldemort.

Despite some of AOB's obvious faults, he has done a good job getting us to 4 out of 5 finals appearances. We should be doing better imo but after the grim last decade, I'd say I'm glad we've consistently been in the 8 now.
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Yeah when you have had two in the last decade 2010s then 4/5 in the 2020s you absolutely take that.
Even in the 2000s/Joey era there was 5 finals appearances and four of those came when he played, would have probably had a couple more if it wasnt for Joeys injuries. But at least in those the team was a contender in comparison to now which everyone is trying to push for going forward.

My guess is that's one of O'Sullivan's priorities to find a halfback, and run with a lot of the team for 2025 including those who have re-signed to be a part of that. Hypothetically, Leo tests the market and the Roosters do their sombrero magic and snare him for 2026, do we rethink Saifiti?
 
Is it time to think about replacing blake green? His the man behind our attack and without checking we would have to be close to if not the worst team converting attacking sets, the good sides seem to have everyone in motion and run back to back plays with people in motion, we at times look like we are always just setting up for that one play. Is this a key playmaker issue a systems issue or a combination of both?
 
EASBay17 said:
Is it time to think about replacing blake green? His the man behind our attack and without checking we would have to be close to if not the worst team converting attacking sets, the good sides seem to have everyone in motion and run back to back plays with people in motion, we at times look like we are always just setting up for that one play. Is this a key playmaker issue a systems issue or a combination of both?
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We had the best attack last year? Most tries scored etc. Its all down to the head coach and what his sets look like this year. Very defensive minded which is hell boring but it's kinda working. We do need to be better though.
 
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