The Halfback Conundrum

[Frank McWilliams]

Halfback/Lucas ??????????

 

[Les Misérables]

To be fair Lucas out did Haumole and Angus on defence efficiency and running metres per game, whilst scoring equal of Haumole yet people were raving about him and only Knights fans were saying anything about Lucas.

I wouldn’t trade Lucas in for any second rower in the comp I see him as a future Australian mainstay, and one more season like last and he should make the NSW squad.

Maybe it’s Knights bias from my point of view though and I do tend to do that.

He's got it all, Lucas. But he isn't quite there, yet. His challenge is to bring the best of each aspect of his game and maintain it all game.

He also needs to keep improving his strength and technique both with and without the ball. The best backrow are deceptively strong and subtly violent in defence. If he can add marginal improvement physically and be very consistent with it then he'll reach his full potential.

 

[Defence wins games]

He's got it all, Lucas. But he isn't quite there, yet. His challenge is to bring the best of each aspect of his game and maintain it all game.

He also needs to keep improving his strength and technique both with and without the ball. The best backrow are deceptively strong and subtly violent in defence. If he can add marginal improvement physically and be very consistent with it then he'll reach his full potential.

Lucas is a real Newcastle Knights player. Everyone can see he gives his best every game. He doesn’t dog it and everyone can see what it means to him.
Give me a team of Lucas - effort players and we are in the race with Penrith.

 

[HarVeeGee13]

He's got it all, Lucas. But he isn't quite there, yet. His challenge is to bring the best of each aspect of his game and maintain it all game.

He also needs to keep improving his strength and technique both with and without the ball. The best backrow are deceptively strong and subtly violent in defence. If he can add marginal improvement physically and be very consistent with it then he'll reach his full potential.

Adding this to his incredible line running & pace for that position + his work rate would give us a legit contender for the best all round back rower in the NRL.

I know you’re not a fan, but AOB & the coaching staff surely deserve some credit for identifying how good of a back rower he’d make? I was pretty adamant that wing should be his position, personally, but that’s clearly wrong.

 

[Celticman98]

Lucas is the type of bloke that we can build a good roster on. Hard working athletic back rower who loves the club and seems to have the want to win.

Glad we re-signed him as soon we could.

 

[KPGreatness]

What’s up with Liam Sutton I heard like two years ago the Knights rate him but he is what 22 now? Is he ever gonna debut? Or is he more a cast away now?

Couldn’t do much worse than what we currently have, big body, good pace.

 

[Brad tighe]

What’s up with Liam Sutton I heard like two years ago the Knights rate him but he is what 22 now? Is he ever gonna debut? Or is he more a cast away now?

Couldn’t do much worse than what we currently have, big body, good pace.

His a huge body and from what I’ve seen his not really good enough to be an elite half in the nrl

 

[Frank McWilliams]

Our problem with the likes of Liam Sutton and a few other youngsters is we are in overstock of senior players in relevant positions, e.g. play Hastings or Cogger at 7 in firsts you then need to use the other in Cup, no standout best player but no room to develop the youngsters

 

[Les Misérables]

Adding this to his incredible line running & pace for that position + his work rate would give us a legit contender for the best all round back rower in the NRL.

I know you’re not a fan, but AOB & the coaching staff surely deserve some credit for identifying how good of a back rower he’d make? I was pretty adamant that wing should be his position, personally, but that’s clearly wrong.

AOB deserves credit for everything good happening at the club imo. I reckon there are things he does very well. He's done a sensational job with junior dev, Best and Lucas in particular.

Lucas has great instinct for the attacking side of the game and can back it up physically. He is rapid for a forward, as quick over 40m as any backrow in the comp, I'd wager, and can accelerate out of a left or right foot step. A lot of backs can't even do that effectively. And yea, his work rate is sky high, another hallmark of a top class player.

Though as it stands he is marginally short of rep quality imo. Some games he has huge leg drive post contact and other games he's less effective. Some games his effort in the ruck wanes in periods, not that it's ever 'poor' but for Lucas it's about maintaining his best for the entire time he's on the park and there's a noticeable difference between Lucas trying to dominate the ruck and Lucas just going through the motion to complete the tackle.

Your peak Beau Scott should be the profile Lucas strives for. Just balls to the wall aggression and dominance from min 1 through until the 80th. Takes time to learn how to be so dominant in defence and still be poised to dominate with ball in hand, takes more than fitness and mentality, it's largely about technique imo. That's what I hope for with Lucas, that he can lift all elements of his best by 10% and then maintain that all game, each week. That's more or less the difference between a Luke Lewis and a Dylan Lucas.

 

[KPGreatness]

His a huge body and from what I’ve seen his not really good enough to be an elite half in the nrl

What about him makes him not elite, just wondering as I haven’t really been able to see his game apart from a few highlights.

 

[The Mole]

His a huge body and from what I’ve seen his not really good enough to be an elite half in the nrl

I think to be an elite 7 will take time for most, there are a few exceptions. But the ceiling of a young 7 with speed and size should be explored. Instead of looking to buy or recruit untested or average 7’s from elsewhere take a punt on one you’ve developed through the grades. Young Sharpe is a great example of what an opportunity can bring

 

[Brad tighe]

I think to be an elite 7 will take time for most, there are a few exceptions. But the ceiling of a young 7 with speed and size should be explored. Instead of looking to buy or recruit untested or average 7’s from elsewhere take a punt on one you’ve developed through the grades. Young Sharpe is a great example of what an opportunity can bring

When has a big bodied half won a comp or origin series? The problem with Liam Sutton is his kicking game all round play making. His okay but more of a 5/8 for me. Could develop into a lock.

 

[Owey]

What about him makes him not elite, just wondering as I haven’t really been able to see his game apart from a few highlights.

It's a great question, and when you look at elite halves across the nrl, they all bring their own strengths. To me, Sutton has two major strengths as a half. His long kicking game is the best in the club, including a good helping of 40/20s last year where he would pick is target and nail it. He is also robust defensively, no issues there. He is very quick, like nrl winger quick, but didn't find space a lot last year. Game management is where you would expect it in a young half and ball playing is a bit average. Short kicking isnt a strength atm either. But, he has the raw tools. I'd like to think the club can see the tools and develop another one, either work on his running game or game management to make him an nrl player. It's like the scene in moneyball when the scouts are talking to Billy Bean's mum and says some players have two elite skills out of five, and you hope to develop another one to make a star. I think Sutton does enough well and has natural pace to be effective at nrl level.

 

[Battler]

It's a great question, and when you look at elite halves across the nrl, they all bring their own strengths. To me, Sutton has two major strengths as a half. His long kicking game is the best in the club, including a good helping of 40/20s last year where he would pick is target and nail it. He is also robust defensively, no issues there. He is very quick, like nrl winger quick, but didn't find space a lot last year. Game management is where you would expect it in a young half and ball playing is a bit average. Short kicking isnt a strength atm either. But, he has the raw tools. I'd like to think the club can see the tools and develop another one, either work on his running game or game management to make him an nrl player. It's like the scene in moneyball when the scouts are talking to Billy Bean's mum and says some players have two elite skills out of five, and you hope to develop another one to make a star. I think Sutton does enough well and has natural pace to be effective at nrl level.

So maybe more of a Matt Burton 5/8 type?

 

[Owey]

So maybe more of a Matt Burton 5/8 type?

Yeah, maybe not a bad analogy.

What are we saying Hughes' strengths are? He runs the ball exceptionally well. What else? How much does he game manage? How much does he ball play? I don't think that much, but Melbourne run like a well oiled machine with him at seven. The game plan allows him to play to his strengths. He doesn't have to overdo the things he isn't strong at.

We really seem to be looking for an organiser at half back, which kind of rules Sutton out. But I think there is a first grade half in him, just not the stereotype we are after. Maybe if we had decided he was a winger a few years back his path might be different. The art of producing a half seems to have been lost to most clubs, but to me, Hughes shows us that the role can be adjusted to suit the player, rather then judging a half by all the traditional measures.

 

[HarVeeGee13]

I think there’s been a bit of a transition with Hughes, where when he first moved there his job was very simple, but his responsibility w/r/t steering the team around and implementing the game plan has increased a lot since Smith retired (particularly general play kicking, he’s honestly evolved from so-so as a boot to genuinely top tier). He, Harry and Cam are all guys who do a lot of running for their position (Munster in particular basically takes hit ups like an extra forward), but are also all vocal on field leaders who could be a good solo main playmaker for their team if they had to be. Bellyache’s teams have consistently played more out of dummy half than first receiver, but Grant needs to be given freedom to run in a way Smith didn’t, so I don’t think he’s that kind of simple role player anymore - the three of them are equal partners in running that team, constantly floating around & covering for each other as they move upfield and get into attacking areas.

It’s also still really weird that Hughes at 7 has panned out as well as it has, like literally no one thought it would be his best position - Bellyache will be the first to tell you that he put him there as a desperation move to fit both him & Pappy in the team - so it’s hard to use his career as a guide for what you might expect from any other player, honestly.

 

[Owey]

I think there’s been a bit of a transition with Hughes, where when he first moved there his job was very simple, but his responsibility w/r/t steering the team around and implementing the game plan has increased a lot since Smith retired (particularly general play kicking, he’s honestly evolved from so-so as a boot to genuinely top tier). He, Harry and Cam are all guys who do a lot of running for their position (Munster in particular basically takes hit ups like an extra forward), but are also all vocal on field leaders who could be a good solo main playmaker for their team if they had to be. Bellyache’s teams have consistently played more out of dummy half than first receiver, but Grant needs to be given freedom to run in a way Smith didn’t, so I don’t think he’s that kind of simple role player anymore - the three of them are equal partners in running that team, constantly floating around & covering for each other as they move upfield and get into attacking areas.

It’s also still really weird that Hughes at 7 has panned out as well as it has, like literally no one thought it would be his best position - Bellyache will be the first to tell you that he put him there as a desperation move to fit both him & Pappy in the team - so it’s hard to use his career as a guide for what you might expect from any other player, honestly.

Yes, agreed. More pointing out that halfbacks don't need to have all the skills, especially when young. If they can play to a couple of key strengths, and some others develop with maturity, you can get value out of guys who can't do all the traditional halfback things.

 

[Les Misérables]

I think there’s been a bit of a transition with Hughes, where when he first moved there his job was very simple, but his responsibility w/r/t steering the team around and implementing the game plan has increased a lot since Smith retired (particularly general play kicking, he’s honestly evolved from so-so as a boot to genuinely top tier). He, Harry and Cam are all guys who do a lot of running for their position (Munster in particular basically takes hit ups like an extra forward), but are also all vocal on field leaders who could be a good solo main playmaker for their team if they had to be. Bellyache’s teams have consistently played more out of dummy half than first receiver, but Grant needs to be given freedom to run in a way Smith didn’t, so I don’t think he’s that kind of simple role player anymore - the three of them are equal partners in running that team, constantly floating around & covering for each other as they move upfield and get into attacking areas.

It’s also still really weird that Hughes at 7 has panned out as well as it has, like literally no one thought it would be his best position - Bellyache will be the first to tell you that he put him there as a desperation move to fit both him & Pappy in the team - so it’s hard to use his career as a guide for what you might expect from any other player, honestly.

Agree, but that said, if a simple 7 who's entire game could be confined to strategic kicking and opportunistic hard running through the middle at 1st receiver, not unlike the role set-up for Crossland at 7, would we not be perhaps the only club who could play Sutton at 7 in that role and have it succeed?

Maybe Sutton is the right halves partner for say, Jack Cogger..

 

[The Mole]

Agree, but that said, if a simple 7 who's entire game could be confined to strategic kicking and opportunistic hard running through the middle at 1st receiver, not unlike the role set-up for Crossland at 7, would we not be perhaps the only club who could play Sutton at 7 in that role and have it succeed?

Maybe Sutton is the right halves partner for say, Jack Cogger..

Great point, the cup team looked better when they paired in the halves.

 

[Billy]

Who will be Newcastle's halves in 2025?

The Knights used several combinations during the 2024 NRL season.

www.newcastleherald.com.au

Herald article about the halves.
Says O'Brien has not said anything this pre-season so far.
Gives a quote from Cogger, saying he thinks he'd be in the starting side if it were picked today.
Gives a quote from Gamble saying he is just trying to get in the 17 in any role.
Gives a quote from Crossland saying he'll play wherever needed but sees himself as a 9 now.
Only mentions Hastings, Cogger, Pryce, Gamble and Crossland as possibilities - no new signings or lower grades mentioned.