Knights at the Round Table Discussion - Concussion

[bremsstrahlung]

Bit of a long one….

Have been listening to The Bye Round’s episodes of the Round Table Discussion (there’s 10). On the round table is Panthers CEO, Anthony Siebold, James Graham and Buzz. They go through and discuss the various stakeholder (player, coach, CEO, Media) perspectives of issues facing the game. Some really good insights from the coaches and CEO perspective, that I found really interesting. And made me think I’d be interested to hear the varied opinions of supporters and I like to think most here are capable of having some really good discussions.

One of the topics discussed was concussion.

We’ve just seen the breach notice for Katoa - with 2 year bans for some involved. Think these notices open it up for litigation if Katoa/Storm want to go down that pathway.

Recently, we saw the RLPA come out with their report into concussion and player attitudes towards concussion. Some pretty alarming findings.

The anonymous survey, surveyed 850 players (500 male, 350 female). Mostly in relation to training.

- 1 in 3 didn’t report concussion symptoms.

- 2 in 3 NRL players continued training despite believing they were concussed.

- 40% don’t get medical clearance before returning to training. (Unclear what capacity “training” is).

- Some players reported 3-4 training concussions in 12 months.

There appears to be a problem with how concussion is perceived amongst the players.

We are learning more and more about repeat concussions and how it affects the brain, in ways that often do not manifest until later in life.

In some ways, it is invisible. You can’t really prove to somebody you have concussion symptoms in the same way you could get a scan to show a small muscle tear. It affects everyone differently, but many are able to continue on at a reasonable level with minor concussion. It’s only the major/knocked out ones that have some visible effects - stumbling, balance, confusion etc. some immediate, some manifest days after.

IMO, the survey shows there’s a bit of a problem if players are still happy not to report their concussion symptoms.

Some discussion points:

Do you think the game is doing enough with concussion? Can they do anything else?

Do you think the players need to take on more/any responsibility? Do they need more education?

Do you think the game is becoming “soft” in relation to concussions?

Do clubs/NRL need to empower players to recognise and report their symptoms?

What do you think the future ramifications of ‘concussion’ and CTE in later life, will have on Rugby League as we know it? What do you foresee in the next 10 years?

As fans of the Knights, how do we feel when Ponga suffered a concussion? When he took some time away from the game, did we understand his position? Did we think he was ‘soft’ for taking weeks off? Do we think he’s playing with fire continuing to play?

How do we feel when we watch the replays of Chief back in the day?

Interested to hear your opinions, thoughts and/or comments.

*(Questions don’t particularly express my own feelings, just there to prompt some feelings).
**there’s a few other interesting topics that I might chuck up - such as the draw and player contracts/transfers and fan experience.

 

[Newygirl]

Bit of a long one….

Have been listening to The Bye Round’s episodes of the Round Table Discussion (there’s 10). On the round table is Panthers CEO, Anthony Siebold, James Graham and Buzz. They go through and discuss the various stakeholder (player, coach, CEO, Media) perspectives of issues facing the game. Some really good insights from the coaches and CEO perspective, that I found really interesting. And made me think I’d be interested to hear the varied opinions of supporters and I like to think most here are capable of having some really good discussions.

One of the topics discussed was concussion.

We’ve just seen the breach notice for Katoa - with 2 year bans for some involved. Think these notices open it up for litigation if Katoa/Storm want to go down that pathway.

Recently, we saw the RLPA come out with their report into concussion and player attitudes towards concussion. Some pretty alarming findings.

The anonymous survey, surveyed 850 players (500 male, 350 female). Mostly in relation to training.

- 1 in 3 didn’t report concussion symptoms.

- 2 in 3 NRL players continued training despite believing they were concussed.

- 40% don’t get medical clearance before returning to training. (Unclear what capacity “training” is).

- Some players reported 3-4 training concussions in 12 months.

There appears to be a problem with how concussion is perceived amongst the players.

We are learning more and more about repeat concussions and how it affects the brain, in ways that often do not manifest until later in life.

In some ways, it is invisible. You can’t really prove to somebody you have concussion symptoms in the same way you could get a scan to show a small muscle tear. It affects everyone differently, but many are able to continue on at a reasonable level with minor concussion. It’s only the major/knocked out ones that have some visible effects - stumbling, balance, confusion etc. some immediate, some manifest days after.

IMO, the survey shows there’s a bit of a problem if players are still happy not to report their concussion symptoms.

Some discussion points:

Do you think the game is doing enough with concussion? Can they do anything else?

Do you think the players need to take on more/any responsibility? Do they need more education?

Do you think the game is becoming “soft” in relation to concussions?

Do clubs/NRL need to empower players to recognise and report their symptoms?

What do you think the future ramifications of ‘concussion’ and CTE in later life, will have on Rugby League as we know it? What do you foresee in the next 10 years?

As fans of the Knights, how do we feel when Ponga suffered a concussion? When he took some time away from the game, did we understand his position? Did we think he was ‘soft’ for taking weeks off? Do we think he’s playing with fire continuing to play?

How do we feel when we watch the replays of Chief back in the day?

Interested to hear your opinions, thoughts and/or comments.

*(Questions don’t particularly express my own feelings, just there to prompt some feelings).
**there’s a few other interesting topics that I might chuck up - such as the draw and player contracts/transfers and fan experience.

In regards to KP and the head knocks he’s had, I honestly felt sick with some of them. Hated the way everyone laughed about the Chad Townsend incident and made light of it.

I thought the NRL let teams get away with targeting him under high balls for way too long. Also that JWH incident where he stood over him and slammed his head back was disgraceful.

So no I certainly don’t think he was soft for taking weeks off. Frankly, I find any discussion over toughness and head knocks to be completely ignorant and frankly irrelevant.

Toughness should never enter the conversation in relation to head knocks or concussions.

I certainly wouldn’t begrudge KP for taking longer time period off if he needed to. Initially, I think the club were a bit neglectful in letting him play 6 again and should’ve voiced concern to the NRL about oppositions deliberately targeting his head. However, I think the club has treated him pretty well since then with the whole Canada visit etc

 

[Billy]

I can't remember why, but I did an assignment for Uni on brain injuries in sport and the surprising sport that was number 1 for serious brain injuries was horse racing (jockeys). When those guys fall off and land on their heads at 50 or 60 kilometres and hour, or get trampled by following horses, they often get brain injuries equal to car crash injuries.
Second was obviously boxing and similar sports that involve punches or kicks to the head.
Third was soccer, where heading the ball was the major factor.
4th was American football, ironically because they use their helmeted heads as a weapon and smash their heads together.
league, Union and Afl are all in the lists with other contact sports, but nowhere near the top of the list.

 

[bremsstrahlung]

In regards to KP and the head knocks he’s had, I honestly felt sick with some of them. Hated the way everyone laughed about the Chad Townsend incident and made light of it.

I thought the NRL let teams get away with targeting him under high balls for way too long. Also that JWH incident where he stood over him and slammed his head back was disgraceful.

So no I certainly don’t think he was soft for taking weeks off. Frankly, I find any discussion over toughness and head knocks to be completely ignorant and frankly irrelevant.

Toughness should never enter the conversation in relation to head knocks or concussions.

I certainly wouldn’t begrudge KP for taking longer time period off if he needed to. Initially, I think the club were a bit neglectful in letting him play 6 again and should’ve voiced concern to the NRL about oppositions deliberately targeting his head. However, I think the club has treated him pretty well since then with the whole Canada visit etc

Thanks for responding.

I do think the overall sentiment towards Ponga was one of understanding and I agree the Knights were good in the way they handled things. It’s been a little while (Glasby, McManus) since we’ve had ongoing concussions - whereas it seems like Roosters have a new player suffering each year.

Some clubs are perceived to handle things well.
On the 167 podcast, Papenhauzen said he had some headaches post game (Passed HIA or maybe didn’t need one - can’t remember) and the storm withdrew him for the 11- day stand down. I guess Paps took some responsibility for his health, as I daresay it would be easy to say he’s all good…

In relation to the targeting of Ponga, and potentially we can add Reece Walsh into the conversation now as a recent example, do you think we have a reasonable balance in protecting the player, but also maintaining a physical game? Or is there more we can do?

I think there’s a positive shift. Years ago most people would have seen Chief as a brave, tough player in relation to playing on after head knocks (he’s still a very tough player). Today, he’d almost be deemed an idiot if he continued after those knocks.

 

[Defence wins games]

In regards to KP and the head knocks he’s had, I honestly felt sick with some of them. Hated the way everyone laughed about the Chad Townsend incident and made light of it.

I thought the NRL let teams get away with targeting him under high balls for way too long. Also that JWH incident where he stood over him and slammed his head back was disgraceful.

So no I certainly don’t think he was soft for taking weeks off. Frankly, I find any discussion over toughness and head knocks to be completely ignorant and frankly irrelevant.

Toughness should never enter the conversation in relation to head knocks or concussions.

I certainly wouldn’t begrudge KP for taking longer time period off if he needed to. Initially, I think the club were a bit neglectful in letting him play 6 again and should’ve voiced concern to the NRL about oppositions deliberately targeting his head. However, I think the club has treated him pretty well since then with the whole Canada visit etc

When Ponga was targeted each week, particularly with the Townsend and Hargreaves dog shots on him, the NRL was having a bit each way with concussions.
I believe there is still a fairly lax approach to concussions at both training and before/ during games if the truth be known.
Until a class action against the employer happens, the NRL will ride the razors edge on concussions which in all honesty, hardly passes the pub test in the fair dinkum department.

 

[R_A]

Maybe one day we will really go down the path you play this sport at your own risk, but here's a pile of cash to make up for it as salaries grow.
Probably not.
One thing the NFL do is ban heavy contact in preseason practices/training to avoid injuries. Get the idea, the oldies hate it because you still need live game reps, as it 'toughens you up' and makes you ready for when the gameday begins

I think there’s a positive shift. Years ago most people would have seen Chief as a brave, tough player in relation to playing on after head knocks (he’s still a very tough player). Today, he’d almost be deemed an idiot if he continued after those knocks.

Can you imagine the anonymous survey of former players 20 years ago or so and what those results would have been? Yikes. No one really talked about it then. Where would we pinpoint where it was first staring to take it seriously. When McManus thought about suing the team? Joey being clotheslined by SBW in 2007 and suprisingly only missing a week?

As fans of the Knights, how do we feel when Ponga suffered a concussion? When he took some time away from the game, did we understand his position? Did we think he was ‘soft’ for taking weeks off? Do we think he’s playing with fire continuing to play?

Never had an issue with it.

 

[Wicket]

Head knocks need to be taken more seriously by the NRL.

Then the players will hopefully start taking head knocks more seriously.

Currently almost every team uses head knocks in games to get a free interchange. While that is allowed to continue, most players won’t take it seriously

Also during games it depends on what position the effected player plays in as to how quickly they take the player off eg a prop is taken off straight away, an outside back might play for another set and a halfback they hope they can leave him on the field

I think the NRL should leave the bench as 4 players, using the same rules we are currently using. Then have players that come on solely for concussion replacements for specific positions eg 1 half, 1 winger, 1 prop, 1 2nd rower.

Not sure how that would work. Do you make all reserve grade games play at the same ground as first grade and they sit on the bench as back up

 

[Newygirl]

Thanks for responding.

I do think the overall sentiment towards Ponga was one of understanding and I agree the Knights were good in the way they handled things. It’s been a little while (Glasby, McManus) since we’ve had ongoing concussions - whereas it seems like Roosters have a new player suffering each year.

Some clubs are perceived to handle things well.
On the 167 podcast, Papenhauzen said he had some headaches post game (Passed HIA or maybe didn’t need one - can’t remember) and the storm withdrew him for the 11- day stand down. I guess Paps took some responsibility for his health, as I daresay it would be easy to say he’s all good…

In relation to the targeting of Ponga, and potentially we can add Reece Walsh into the conversation now as a recent example, do you think we have a reasonable balance in protecting the player, but also maintaining a physical game? Or is there more we can do?

I think there’s a positive shift. Years ago most people would have seen Chief as a brave, tough player in relation to playing on after head knocks (he’s still a very tough player). Today, he’d almost be deemed an idiot if he continued after those knocks.

Things have definitely improved on most fronts, however, the Katoa issue shows there’s still a lot more that needs to be done. For example, why wasn’t there a doctor or medical professional observing the warm up? I guess this would also mean someone needs to observing training as well.

Given the results from the players survey, I think things probably need to be taken out of the players hands more and greater education may be required.

Also, 11 days seems a fairly light lay-off period given the stand downs required in boxing.

I think the NRL needs to update the 18th man activation. Just make it a five man bench, keep the interchanges the same and then a 19th man that can be activated if a team loses a player to concussion. That way there’s not only better coverage for injuries but less pressure on players to feel they need to stay on so they don’t let the team down.

Agree about Walsh as well. That Suaalii hit in Origin was sickening and I don’t want to see Walsh or anyone else targeted the way KP was.

 

[Defence wins games]

Head knocks need to be taken more seriously by the NRL.

Then the players will hopefully start taking head knocks more seriously.

Currently almost every team uses head knocks in games to get a free interchange. While that is allowed to continue, most players won’t take it seriously

Also during games it depends on what position the effected player plays in as to how quickly they take the player off eg a prop is taken off straight away, an outside back might play for another set and a halfback they hope they can leave him on the field

I think the NRL should leave the bench as 4 players, using the same rules we are currently using. Then have players that come on solely for concussion replacements for specific positions eg 1 half, 1 winger, 1 prop, 1 2nd rower.

Not sure how that would work. Do you make all reserve grade games play at the same ground as first grade and they sit on the bench as back up

Now that’s a blast from the past, but it would mean the Reggie’s and the NRL teams would have to play at the same games and not all NRL teams have Reggie’s.
A great thought though.
Plus it would be a return to watching the 3 grades perhaps like the old days.
What a concept NRL administrators!

 

[bremsstrahlung]

I can't remember why, but I did an assignment for Uni on brain injuries in sport and the surprising sport that was number 1 for serious brain injuries was horse racing (jockeys). When those guys fall off and land on their heads at 50 or 60 kilometres and hour, or get trampled by following horses, they often get brain injuries equal to car crash injuries.
Second was obviously boxing and similar sports that involve punches or kicks to the head.
Third was soccer, where heading the ball was the major factor.
4th was American football, ironically because they use their helmeted heads as a weapon and smash their heads together.
league, Union and Afl are all in the lists with other contact sports, but nowhere near the top of the list.

Interesting findings.

I can see the effects of horse racing and boxing/combat sports being high impact trauma. Eg the effects/pathologies were probably immediate. And it wouldn’t surprise me if boxers were concussed to some degree every fight.

Whereas the footballs would seem to be more cumulative. Sure, a bad headclash could cause a bleed similar to that of Katoa. But I think the concerns pertaining to the footballs (sokkah, league, union, afl) are mainly focussed on CTE and those effects are often not noticeable until later in life and in most cases, after death IF any kind of autopsy/brain study is conducted.

Arguably the biggest sport NFL, only acknowledged CTE in 2016. In two separate studies they found evidence of CTE in 99% and 92% of ex NFL player brains. So I think we are very much at the beginning of our journey to fully understanding CTE in NRL.

I think the awareness from NFL court case and findings have increased awareness. To the point that we are now rightly or wrongly attributing dementia/alzheimers etc in ex NRL players to concussions. (It’s hard to prove if somebody has a genetic predisposition or if it’s CTE related). Prior to that case, it wouldn’t be newsworthy if a ex player had those conditions.

The game is changing a lot as well. There’s a massive focus on power now, and substitutions have created a much more powerful game. I think we are starting to see a bit of a down trend now, though. But you get lots of “fresh” “big” props coming on to run as hard as they can. For a while, there wasn’t too much fatigue in the game, and players were heavier, and running faster and that impact force is high.

I think moving forward a lot of ex NRL players from the 80s/90s/00s will be recruited to studies and we may find out more.

 

[Wicket]

Interesting findings.

I can see the effects of horse racing and boxing/combat sports being high impact trauma. Eg the effects/pathologies were probably immediate. And it wouldn’t surprise me if boxers were concussed to some degree every fight.

Whereas the footballs would seem to be more cumulative. Sure, a bad headclash could cause a bleed similar to that of Katoa. But I think the concerns pertaining to the footballs (sokkah, league, union, afl) are mainly focussed on CTE and those effects are often not noticeable until later in life and in most cases, after death IF any kind of autopsy/brain study is conducted.

Arguably the biggest sport NFL, only acknowledged CTE in 2016. In two separate studies they found evidence of CTE in 99% and 92% of ex NFL player brains. So I think we are very much at the beginning of our journey to fully understanding CTE in NRL.

I think the awareness from NFL court case and findings have increased awareness. To the point that we are now rightly or wrongly attributing dementia/alzheimers etc in ex NRL players to concussions. (It’s hard to prove if somebody has a genetic predisposition or if it’s CTE related). Prior to that case, it wouldn’t be newsworthy if a ex player had those conditions.

The game is changing a lot as well. There’s a massive focus on power now, and substitutions have created a much more powerful game. I think we are starting to see a bit of a down trend now, though. But you get lots of “fresh” “big” props coming on to run as hard as they can. For a while, there wasn’t too much fatigue in the game, and players were heavier, and running faster and that impact force is high.

I think moving forward a lot of ex NRL players from the 80s/90s/00s will be recruited to studies and we may find out more.

My hope with the CTE studies is that they also study the general population ie people who have never suffered a concussion. To my understanding they have only studied ex sports people who have played contact sports and suffered concussions.

Im sure the head knocks are contributing to CTE, but I’m interested in if it’s environmental, something in food we eat or taking drugs that causes CTE

It’s definitely something that we are only scratching the surface on and I'm glad the NRL are taking steps to protect the players