Brendan Elliot's concussion

Discussion in 'Newcastle Knights Discussion' started by rhugh89, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Kurriboy

    Kurriboy Chris Joynt

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    I dont think you can say a club should not have their own doctor at games. This is about hia not any other injuries. A clubs doc would have inside info on players current and past conditions that would not have been shared with the nrl. I think both clubs will have their fines wiped. Havent heard anything from gc.

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  2. 88Knight4life

    88Knight4life Matthew Johns

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    Every club will still have there own doctor, trainers and what not.

    Though with this hia issue the nrl need to be leading the way and the only intelligent option is that 8 independent doctors are employed by the nrl to over see each game every week and that doctor be the head doctor ( no pun intended ) at the ground.

    This eliminates any future issue for a club and will only aid in the protection of players moving forward.
     
  3. member 2299

    member 2299 Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus

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    That is what I thought was announced a year or two ago. An independent doctor to do the concussion test. if it is left to Club doctors, coaches will short circuit them out of the decision making process.

    I am still amazed Elliot was not taken off after laying on the ground out to it for several minutes, and he was NOT milking it.
     
  4. Kurriboy

    Kurriboy Chris Joynt

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    From my understanding there is a tent for replays that the doc can view. Saints one wasnt working.

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  5. rhugh89

    rhugh89 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Brown responds to Breach Notice


    Tue 21st March, 01:30PM


    Breach Notice by the NRL on Monday following Saturday’s match against the South Sydney Rabbitohs.

    "As a Club we support what the NRL is trying to do with concussion," explained Brown.

    "We’re one of a few clubs that have Doctor Andrew Gardner and Doctor Chris Levi, who have their own concussion clinic, which is separate to the Club, that all the players go and see if they fail tests.

    "Doctor Levi is a world leader in the field, anybody that doesn’t think we support it, I’d be disappointed.”

    The Knights coach also supported decisions made by his staff.

    “Tony Ayoub has 30 years experience, he’s made a judgement call and as the head coach we support our staff, we’ll go through the process with the NRL now and see what the outcome is,” Brown added.

    “I’d imagine like every coach, you support your medical staff, that’s why they are out there in the first place.”

    Brown said if players don’t pass the concussion test after the game, they are sent to Doctor Levi.

    “Brendan Elliot is fine, he’s passed so far, so there are no concerns at this stage,” added Brown.

    “He’s still got to tick one or two boxes before he can play but that decision won’t just be made by our doctors, but also the independent people as well.”

    Brown was satisfied with the action taken by the referees in Saturday’s clash, however he maintains the game needs to address the situation of losing a player to concussion.

    “I made my position quite clear after the game, what I think about concussion and foul play and the ability of the Club to have other players introduced into the game,” explained Brown.

    “The interchange and reserves have changed as the game has evolved, who knows whether it changes in 12 months or two years, the rules change a bit more frequently than they did years ago.”

    The Knights will announce a 21-man squad on Tuesday afternoon, as focus turns to Friday night's clash with the Penrith Panthers at Pepper Stadium.


    http://www.newcastleknights.com.au/news/2017/03/21/brown_responds_to_br.html
     
  6. Kurriboy

    Kurriboy Chris Joynt

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    He should have worked something in to his statement about the foul play on the field not getting even penalised, yet the concussion resulting from it leaves them a player down, possibly for more than 1 week, and also leaves them exposed to financial penalties.

    If the NRL is serious about concussion, it needs to focus on both sides of the concussion, the cause, and the result.

    Maybe that sort of discussion goes on behind the scenes between the Knights and the NRL.
     
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  7. member 2299

    member 2299 Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus

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    The problem as I see it Tony Ayoub is not a doctor and therefore unqualified to decide if Elliot had concussion or not. Elliot should have been taken off and assessed in the dressing room by the Club doctor.
     
  8. Billy

    Billy Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus

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    There's nothing a doctor could do that he couldn't do - unless they let the doc run out with a 5 million dollar cat scan unit strapped to his back.
     
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  9. Ethan

    Ethan Clint Newton

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    Ayoub has a test to do on field designed by doctors and he is trained to do it that makes him qualified ....
     
  10. Billy

    Billy Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus

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    It's more likely it was designed by a research team of psychologists, but he'd have a simple, evidence based protocol for a cognitive impairment test. It would be designed so anyone could apply it with 10 minutes training.
     
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  11. Kurriboy

    Kurriboy Chris Joynt

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    So your contradicting yourself though.

    If the trainer has been trained to administer the test, then the doc is not required on field until it is determined the player has to leave the field.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The NRL has put guidelines in place, the club seems to have followed the guidelines. The NRL fines them.
     
  12. Tubby

    Tubby Gary Wurth

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    The assessment they perform on the field is unbelievably basic, and its something which sports physio's are trained in.

    http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/47/5/259.full.pdf

    There is a copy of the SCAT-3 which is the HIA. All they look for on the field are the symptoms of concussion, for any loss of consciousness, and ask the 5 basic questions (where are we? which half is it? etc). Where Ayoub might be in trouble is the NRL have extra guidelines for what they call a 'slow stand', where if they player is on the ground for a long time that they have to be brought off for the full assessment.
     
  13. Kurriboy

    Kurriboy Chris Joynt

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    The problem with the slow to stand thing is there is no requirement for a player to jump straight up after getting some sort of injury. If a player injures their shoulder in a big hit, stays down as they are hurt. Why would they come off for a HIA if they are ok to play on?
     
  14. Tubby

    Tubby Gary Wurth

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    It's obviously only applied when there is a head knock. From my understanding the slow stand criteria doesn't apply if they have a neck injury free of concussion symptoms, which is what the Knights will appeal
     
  15. Billy

    Billy Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus

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    That is all anyone could possibly do in the middle of a footy field - and anyone could do it with a little training.
    The NRL could hire a panel of leading specialists for 50k a game, and trot them all out to the middle of a footy field, and all they could do is check for obvious physical symptoms like unreactive pupils or loss of co-ordination, and check orientation for time and place.
    If they aren't happy with that, everyone who bangs their head would have to come off and go to hospital for scans.
     
  16. Kurriboy

    Kurriboy Chris Joynt

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    And this is why I don't get the fine from the NRL.

    The NRL set the policy and the Knights and others followed it. Their policy I assume would be guidelines around when a player must leave the field for HIA, slow to rise, symptoms of concussion etc. These guidelines are put in place for the clubs to follow, the NRL does not have staff running out there.

    So the club trots out their trainer who does the checks and clears the player to continue.

    The NRL, without any investigation or please explain letters, fires off a 100k fine for not following the guidelines. I have no doubt the Knights trainer and Knights, will have all necessary paperwork detailing the assessment at the time and why he was cleared to play on. Without the NRL having their own staff member there doing the check, how can they say the Knights acted contrary to the guidelines?

    I don't believe the NRL can enforce this fine, if it is evidence based. Though it clearly isn't as the fines were sent off seemingly without any investigation in to the incident.

    The NRL does not need to hire a doctor for each match, let the clubs have their own doc, it isn't a doc doing the initial assessment. The NRL can hire appropriately trained persons to do the HIA, their own trainers basically to go out with club trainer and oversee the assessment. If the NRL trainer says he comes off thats it!
     
  17. jamesgould

    jamesgould Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus Staff Member Admin

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    Here's the rules: http://m.nrl.com/nrl-concussion-policy-strengthened/tabid/10874/newsid/85190/default.aspx

    The video evidence seems pretty clear to me that Elliot fell to the ground without taking protective action, and was unconscious. His whole body goes limp, it's obvious. Maybe this should have been picked up by the off-field monitor thing because he was back together by the time the on-field doc got there, but I don't really get how the Knights could argue it.

    Take the lesson happily and move on, I reckon. More thought to player welfare in future.
     
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  18. member 2299

    member 2299 Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus

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    They can't and neither can we James. He was out cold and had to be taken off. 'Simples' as the meerkat says. Great ammunition for Jimmy Mac's lawyers. I would imagine trainers cannot get medical liability insurance with their very limited skill. Another reason to use a doctor.
     
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  19. Billy

    Billy Danny 'Bedsy' Buderus

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    You can't go from unconscious to completely aware of your surroundings in a few seconds.
    If he was unconscious - Ayoub is lying about him passing the test.
    If he passed the test - he wasn't unconscious, just taking a second to compose himself.
     
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  20. Tubby

    Tubby Gary Wurth

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    Every practicing physio has professional indemnity insurance, so Tony Ayoub would be covered
     

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